Creeping Sharia, Yet Again

Bill Muehlenberg 

Hot on the heels of my public debate with a leading Muslim last week, plenty more examples of what I warned about in my talk are coming to light. Indeed, there are far too many to choose from, so let me just highlight three examples of how the religion of peace is not quite living up to its own PR.

The first two examples come out of the UK. The first has to do with the very worrying trend of a rise in ‘honour’ crimes. As the Guardian reported this week, women are experiencing a big rise in attacks associated with honour killings and retaliation.

The article begins this way:

“The number of women and girls in the UK suffering violence and intimidation at the hands of their families or communities is increasing rapidly, according to figures revealing the nationwide scale of ‘honour’ abuse for the first time.

“Statistics obtained under the Freedom of Information Act about such violence – which can include threats, abduction, acid attacks, beatings, forced marriage, mutilation and murder – show that in the 12 police force areas for which comparable data was available, reports went up by 47% in just a year.

“The figures, shared with the Guardian by the Iranian and Kurdish Women’s Rights Organisation (Ikwro), also reveal that a small number of forces – including four in Scotland – are still not collecting data on how often such violence occurs.

“The 39 police forces that gave Ikwro figures recorded 2,823 incidents in 2010. Ikwro estimates that another 500 crimes in which police were involved were committed in the 13 force areas that did not provide data. But this is likely to be only the tip of the iceberg, campaigners say, as so many incidents go unreported because of victims’ fears of recriminations.”

The article also contains the story of one such poor woman:

“When I was 16 my mum came into my room one day and said I had to get married to my cousin in Pakistan. I was horrified: I wanted to go to college and get a job, and I didn’t even know him, how could I marry him? But when I said no, my mum slapped me across the face.

“After that I wasn’t allowed out. My family treated me with disgust, as if I had shamed them. My father, mother, even my young brother, beat me on a daily basis. My body was covered in bruises. I wasn’t given any food for days on end, and I tried to take an overdose on several occasions. I just used to sit on my bed from morning to night. Prison would have been a better place.

“After around a month, they let me go out to the doctor. Terrified, I sat in the toilet and called a solicitors’ firm. I’ve not seen my family since that day. A wonderful solicitor got me a place at a refuge and a forced marriage protection order. But I’m still constantly paranoid: I’m always looking over my shoulder. I’ve lost everything. And I’m scared of what will happen if they find me.”

Now unless I have missed something, such honour crimes were never a problem in the UK before. But with the arrival of so many Muslim immigrants, it is becoming a very real problem indeed. And while I cannot enter into detail here, both the Koran and the hadith make it quite clear that such honour killings are an integral part of Islamic ideology.

A second case of creeping sharia and stealth jihad in the UK also took place quite recently. As reported in The Daily Telegraph, a “Christian worker loses her job after being ‘targeted’ by Islamic extremists”. The story opens this way:

A Christian worker has launched a landmark legal action after she lost her job when she blew the whistle on what she says was a campaign of ‘race hate’ by fundamentalist Muslims. Nohad Halawi, who worked at Heathrow Airport, is suing her former employers for unfair dismissal, claiming that she and other Christian staff at the airport were victims of systematic harassment because of their religion.

She claims that she was told that she would go to Hell for her religion, that Jews were responsible for the September 11th terror attacks, and that a friend was reduced to tears having been bullied for wearing a cross. Mrs Halawi, who came to Britain from Lebanon in 1977, worked in the duty-free section as a perfume saleswoman of the airport for 13 years but was dismissed in July.

As I and others have documented, this is not at all uncommon in the UK and in many parts of the West. Special rights and privileges being given to Muslims are resulting in Christians increasingly being penalised by the law, and losing their jobs and their rights.

Instead of real integration where everyone is treated equally, we have instead segregation and apartheid, where some are more equal than others. And of course this is all one way traffic. Christians in Muslim-majority nations never experience such preferential treatment – quite the opposite.

Lastly, a story of an Australian unlucky enough to be in Saudi Arabia. The sad tale goes this way:

The Federal Government will ‘urgently’ seek leniency after a Shepparton man was sentenced to a year in jail and 500 lashes in Saudi Arabia for religious offences.

Father-of-five Mansor Almaribe, 45, was charged with blasphemy last month while participating in the Hajj, a pilgrimage to Mecca. The Shiite Muslim was initially sentenced to two years in jail and 500 lashes but then reduced the sentence to one year and 500 lashes.

The Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade today said the Australian ambassador had been in touch with Saudi authorities and was providing consular assistance to Mr Almaribe’s family. ‘The Ambassador will urgently pursue avenues for leniency with relevant authorities,’ a spokeswoman said. Mr Almaribe faced the death penalty after he was accused of insulting the companions of the prophet Muhammad under the country’s blasphemy laws.

Ah, the religion of peace strikes again. The truth is, there is no freedom of religion in Islam, and there is no freedom of conscience. The only freedom is one-directional: people are free to convert to Islam, but they most definitely are not free to leave Islam. The penalty for such “apostasy” is death.

Islam is a political ideology and a totalitarian religion, which brooks no dissent, questioning or difference of opinion. Those who dare to question The Prophet or the Koran are regarded as traitors who must be silenced. Islam will never be compatible with Western freedoms and democracy

As Mark Gabriel, former lecturer of Islamic History at Al-Azhar University, Cairo, Egypt recently wrote, “The war today is between seventh-century Islamic culture and twenty-first-century modern culture. These cultures are incompatible. They cannot coexist because the values of one violate the values of the other.”

Bill Muehlenberg is a Melbourne based author who lectures part time in ethics, theology and philosophy. He has an interactive blogsite called CultureWatch. 

Comments

[SignedIn]

1.

‘honour’ abuse is domestic violence - and should be treated as such.

It should be condemned and such acts prosecuted just like any other.

Just as similar acts under aboriginal tribal law should be condemned and prosecuted.

Where a clash of cultures exist .. one cannot impose values on the other .. the only answer is education and time.

In a western context one only has to look to the American South after the US Civil War. It has arguably taken 120+ years for attitudes to change regarding freedom and equality of african americans.

[Disney on ice]

2.

And yet the majority of murders are committed by who?

[Disney on ice]

3.

Can you also cite statistics on increasing islamaphobeia ?

[Ben]

4.

“‘honour’ abuse is domestic violence - and should be treated as such.”???

With weakened laws (thank you Labor and Greens) it’s hard to deal with any abuse.

More, one religion is being favoured by elites and one religion is continually associated with blessing domestic violence – both in public and private.

Left-wingers need to connect the dots over their soy lattes and Fairfax crosswords. Women aren’t cattle.

[Disney on ice]

5.

Woman are not cattle.

But your reference to leftists needing to connect the dots is stupid. Isn't gender inequality still prevalent in this day and age? Especially in corporate environments run by your so called 'elites'? Why are CEO's still almost exclusively male?

If you want to harp on about equality, then start with grassroots reorganization in our own society.

[kraka]

6.

That has to be the most pathetic,weak,cynical,guarded attempt at defending mutliculturalism I have ever read. All cultures are not equal.The sooner you lefties get that through your thick skulls the sooner the grownups can have an honest debate about integrating immigrants into our great culture instead of expecting us to assimilate to theirs.

[Tom]

7.

Krak, what does integration mean? You are always quick to ridicule and mock, so lets hear what it means from your perspective. Also, how do you integrate and assimilate ?

I'd also like to understand what you mean by your sentence 'all cultures are not equal'

[SignedIn]

8.

One religion is being favoured by politicians (with taxpayer dollars and government programs) and one religion is continually associated with discrimination in our so called secular society.

Women are not cattle .. and deserve to be able to make their own choices regarding reproduction.
Oh and their hygiene products should be GST Free.

[SignedIn]

9.

I hope you've never enjoyed a pizza, a souvlaki or a chinese massage.

What do you propose instead? Blocking such immigration? A return to the white australia policy?

[SignedIn]

10.

Do you disagree that the "honour" abuse is domestic violence?
It happens between family members.

It is akin to violence seen in Maori and Islander communities, and also in Indian families to an extent.

And it also happens in Christian families. http://youtu.be/TVil0y3kUu4

[Willie]

11.

The moment that it is seen outside of a domestic violence definition and rather, an act of religious violence, is when you start to consider it a cultural problem.

[tee]

12.

Kraka you appear one of the most unassimilated immigrants one could come across - a fringe dweller attempting to impose his views on one and all, oblivious to social realities, fear mongering and vengeful. Rectify yourself before you preach to others.

[Willie]

13.

Tee, that's not fair, how can any offspring from Hitler and Verwoerd be considered assimilated in 20 century Australia?

[tee]

14.

Within some Islamic cultures (and yes there are many) women have absolutely no rights and are treated as chattel. This is a cultural problem with a religious/Islamic veneer in which women are systematically abused from their childhood. Not all Islamic cultures treat their women in the same way. Islam is not a monolith.

Old Testament Judaism wasnt much better and we have several examples from the new Testament where Jesus stood up for abused women under Judaism- Bill should know that.

[Willie]

15.

You are right, and it is a prime example of direct violence against woman.

People are also quick to forget that Australia routinely implements structural violence against woman, often in the forms of employment, which is far from an even playing field.

[john neeting]

16.

I suggest you get the complete vidoe series of 'Pat Condell' off the net and watch them. He sez it all; better than I could anyway. Any countries where muslims are predominant are right off my list of holiday destinations and off most of the bucket lists compilled by compatriots. I won't voice personal opinions in full here only because they may never be seen [:)] not because of vilification concerns, I can garentee that.

[Tom]

17.

I literally stopped reading as soon as I saw 'sez'

[Barry]

18.

So, why are governments not doing anything about it?.

Seems they support these people , often over and above their own!!!!!

Really makes one wonder.

[Tim]

19.

Barry, do you act as outraged when domestic violence occurs between non-Muslims?

Or what about when Christian lobbyists shoot abortionists ?

Or how about when Protestants discriminate against Catholics in Northern Ireland ?

No?

Because when you use 'these people', you essentially add a religious prejudice to your debate.

[Bohemian Rhapsodi]

20.

Part1:
The islamic ideology is a socio-political ideology which encompasses all aspects of a person's life. In our modern terminology it is fascism. It is based on an apartheid system where human beings are divided by two "races" - muslim and kaffir, and the kaffir are second class citizens not worthy of the full protection of the islamic civil law and are treated as chattel to be bought and sold. A wonderful debate to be held would be "Would the trans-atlantic slave trade have occurred if not for the rise of islam?"

The islamic jurisprudence is commonly known here in the west as shariah law. While many islamic majority countries have "secular" laws, these are all subject to shariah compliance, and do not meet our understanding of secular jurisprudence.

[Bohemian Rhapsodi]

21.

Part 2:
Under islamic jurisprudence mothers, fathers and grandparents who kill their child/grandchild are not subject punishment under sharia law. Coupled with this, of course, is the protection of those who murder apostates.

The so-called "honour" killings are sanctified in islamic law as just and righteous and tolerated, even encouraged, by the islamic culture; domestic violence in secular law is treated as a crime and not tolerated, let alone encouraged, by the secular culture derived from judeo/christian principles as they evolved coupled with Roman law and Greek philosophy. There is simply no comparison between the so-called "honour" killing and domestic violence.

[Bohemian Rhapsodi]

22.

Part 3:
Many people try to pull out the furphy that these practices are "cultural" and without any proof, indicate that these were common before the islamic imperialistic invasions. However, such people can't address the fact that the islamic worldview has been the major cultural influence for 1400 years in the majority of the islamic world - so yes, it is cultural : islamic culture.

[tee]

23.

"Not all Islamic cultures treat their women in the same way. Islam is not a monolith." how about some specific examples yourself rather than a blanket categorization. I suggest Weeke's "Muslim Peoples" for a broad view of the diversity of Muslim cultures extant across the planet. Of course you have read that?

[Andy Semple]

24.

Quran (4:74) - "Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Who so fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him we shall bestow a vast reward."

The theological basis for today's suicide bombers.

Not all Muslims are Terrorists but all Terrorists are Muslims

[Andy Semple]

25.

and don't forget this clown

"One day Australia will live under Sharia; it’s inevitable. If Australians don’t accept it, that’s not our problem. We hope, and our objective is to have a peaceful transition, but when you look at history that has never been the case. There’s always been a fight. It is inevitable that one day there will be a struggle for Islam in Australia."
- Ibrahim Siddiq-Conlon, Sharia4Australia

"My attack is on the Prime Minister of Australia. I hate the parliament in Canberra. I want to go straight for the jugular vein and advise the parliament that they have no right to legislate. They should immediately step down and let the Muslins take over."
- Ibrahim Siddiq-Conlon, Sharia4Australia

[Bohemian Rhapsodi]

26.

Disney on ice : the islamic ideology treats women as nothing more than breeding and fornicating beasts in a man's personal bordello. It is a long way down on the gender inequality ladder. Your harping on about apparent gender inequality is western boardrooms shows total disregard for the inherent dignity of women.

The islamic ideology is forcing itself into western civilisation - it, therefore, is our absolute right, and duty, to analyse and criticise it. This can be done while also addressing other issues in our society. Most of us can manage to deal with more than one issue at a time. Try it, Disney, it's not that hard.

[Bohemian Rhapsodi]

27.

Tee: "Islam is not a monolith"

Islam is an ideology based on the quran, hadiths and sunna with authoriative texts. Its system of jurisprudence, that is shariah, is set, with only the nuances forced by new situations requiring treatment. You are incorect, Tee; the islamic ideology can, and must, be critically analysed.

I'll give you an example to help you understand. I am a Catholic; I say to you that as a Catholic I can contracept, I can have an abortion, and still be a Catholic. However, those are not the teachings of the Catholic Church that Catholics are obligated to follow or (if a Catholic does contracept or have an obortion) otherwise be in mortal sin, and by default, excommunicate yourself by doing so.

I do not go to the cafeteria Catholic for the Church's authoriative teaching; nor do I go to a cafeteria muslim. The islamic ideology is having an impact on our jurisprudence and values - it is my right to understand and criticise it.

[Bohemian Rhapsodi]

28.

Tee says "Not all Islamic cultures treat their women in the same way."

That is because not all of these cultures were purely islamic cultures. For example, Indonesia. This was never a totally islamic culture, and the people maintained their hindu culture with a facade of islamic culture up until the 20th Century, when the islamic culture started to flex its muscles.

The islamic ideology is the absolute antithesis of the inherent dignity of the human person and the absolute antithesis of human rights based on natural law and justice.

I say, let the debate begin based on the objective truth. If a person labels themselves as an adherent of the islamic ideology, then they must defend apartheid, human chattel slavery and the role of women as breeding and fornicating beasts in a man's personal bordello. As do their western protectors, such as yourself.

[Dante]

29.

"With weakened laws (thank you Labor and Greens) it’s hard to deal with any abuse." you are right, the law is so weak that you are allowed to write rubbish like this and get away with it!! There should a law that castrate idiots like you (it's a known fact that idiots bred idiots!)that brandish statements without providing a cintilla of evidence.

[pk]

30.

Don't you just love hjow people endlessly quote certain individuals and declare their extremists beliefs are those of the majority. Does Fred Nile speak for you if you're a Christian? Or perhaps Jim Jones did in the 1970s?

Maybe you just don't know any practising Muslims- hey why would you? You belive in assimilation, but god forbid you actually have to TALK to anyone of a different culture. The Muslims I know do not practise domestic violence as part and parcel of their faith. Sorry they just don't.

And as for this claim -

"all Terrorists are Muslims"

Don't let facts get in the way of your hysteria or anything...

"... official FBI records to show that only 6% of terrorist attacks on U.S. soil from 1980 to 2005 were carried out by Islamic extremists. The remaining 94% were from other groups (42% from Latinos, 24% from extreme left wing groups, 7% from extremist Jews, 5% from communists, and 16% from all other groups)."

http://www.loonwatch.com/2010/01/terrorism-in-europe/

[Dante]

31.

WOW "integrating immigrants into our great culture". Would you be kind enough to define what is this "great culture"? Speak to migrants from several parts of the World that within a short time of living here, with limited English but a burning desire to succeed (that's why Selective High Schools are full of migrant kids!!!) achieve targets that the native only dream of. These people will tell you that our understanding of White Anglosaxon Culture (which I think is what you mean) is one of lazy, undisciplined, rude, untrustworthy dole bludgers full of beer and self-importance.

The fact is that there is NO such thing as "our great culture" with an Australian flavour. This is a multicultural society that functions thanks to that multiplicity of backgrounds that makes it rich and prosperous.

The fact that you still use "assimilate" (I'm sorry, we have no desire to be like you, we prefer to be ourselves, thank you) shows that you are firmly planted in the 1800. In case you haven't noticed (and please don't stop chewing on your pizza, filafel, bruschetta and drinking macchiato and pinot gris) in a few days it will 2012 and you better wake up before the World ends!!! LOL

[Oldman]

32.

There should a law that castrate idiots like you (it's a known fact that idiots bred idiots!)that brandish statements without providing a cintilla of evidence.

I do hope Andy has no kids of his own of if he does, that the vast majority of child's genes are from the mother.

I just don't believe that the owners of MH have allowed the dimwit to post articles on here.

[Dante]

33.

Exodus 21:20-21 "If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property."

And didn't someone order to take his own son and sacrifice him to His honour? How would our current laws see that act of "paternal" love, affection and care?

The simple fact is that all religions have a lot to answer for. Believing that one is superior to the other is stupid. Have we forgotten the Inquisition? The great minds like Galileo being punished for being correct?

Not all religions, just like all cultures, are maturing and acquiring empathy at the same rate. Violence, tortures, privation of liberties, and other acts that normal people living in Australia in 2011 regard as abhorrent have been practiced by our ancestors not long ago.

Time and education has delivered us the current level of civilised relations, although every now and then I hear some dinosaur suggesting that a person should be put in a sack, dropped at sea and asked to swim home!!!

Us moderates in society continue to advocate that dialogue, education and hard work will change practices we find abhorrent. Those that encourage fear and mistrust will achieve nothing else than consolidating people's current positions, whatever these maybe. I suppose that is the difference between us lefties and stuck-in-stone conservatives. Just remember that you catch more flies with a spoonful of honey than a hand grenade!!! There is no better way to alter someone perception than engage them.

[Oldman]

34.

Bill Muehlenberg - incredibly bigoted, homophobic and one of your more immoral dishonest Christian fundamentalists and a master of the straw man. Most of his writings and arguments are simplistic and transparent in their agenda; that anyone that is not a practicing member of Christianity and Baptism in particular are "God haters" and by default not qualified to comment on religion.

[Andy Semple]

35.

and yet well we let people like you, Oldfool, comment here....

You, PuK, Ding Dong Dante, Tim Tard and small Willie are all each a chromosome short of an idiot

[Oldman]

36.

Evidence of the prolific spread of Islamophopia in the original article and also in the comments. I use to think that prjudice is born out of ignorance but when prejudice becomes widespread one needs to look deeper, to a machinery that distributes prejudice, the mass media, the prominent "experts," the publicists and of course, big money.

The Center for American Progress published today a 130-page report detailing how $42 million dollars from seven foundations has fueled over the past decade. the spread of Islamophobia and anti-Muslim feelings in the USA and the rabid right have pounced on the material that the machinery produces to fuel their own bigotry and prejudices. Read the full report here:

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2011/08/pdf/islamophobia.pdf

[Andy Semple]

37.

Another Radical Islamic Clown

"There is no nobler life than to die as a martyr for jihad. None. The highest deed in Islam is Jihad. If we commit to Jihad, we can neglect other deeds, even fasting and prayer."
- Abu Bakar Ba’asyir, Jemaah Islamiah

"One way to achieve an Islamic state, apart from military training and jihad operations, is through irhab, or terror action, using the same tools possessed by the enemy, or the government, such as weapons and bombs."
- Abu Bakar Ba’asyir, Jemaah Islamiah

"The aim of this terror action is to cause panic in society and the ruling government, so it would break apart, making it easier to take over authority."
- Abu Bakar Ba’asyir, Jemaah Islamiah

[Andy Semple]

38.

88 Australians were murdered on the Indonesian island of Bali - 12 October 2002

Jemaah Islamiah claimed responsibility.

[Oldman]

39.

You have a screw lose in that head of yours Sunshine:

Not all Muslims are Terrorists but all Terrorists are Muslims

Are the Japanese Red Army or the Aum Shinrikyo Cult Muslims? Are the Tamil Tigers Muslims?

You continually pull shit out of you backside and parade it as fact and expect others to take you seriosly.

[Oldman]

40.

Who the hell is Ibrahim Siddiq-Conlon, never heard of him and what influence does tAbu Bakar Ba'asyir have anywhere but among his extremist followers in Indenesia?

You really are a Dimwit!

[Oldman]

41.

seriosly = seriously

[pk]

42.

So the bali bombing is the only act of terrorism ever to occur and therefore all muslims are terrorists is that what you're trying to say? Riiiiight.

I still don't understand this insult BTW.....
"are all each a chromosome short of an idiot"

But biology, or constructing even a logical argument aren't really your strong points are they? Best you stick to writing airport novels and furthering baseless hyseria via little blog posts I reckon.

[Bohemian Rhapsodi]

43.

Dante : Firstly, why are you quoting Exodus????? Doing so in this discussion is only a display of ignorance of Christianity - it's 2000 years old, not 200 years old.

The simple fact is that all religions have a lot to answer for. Believing that one is superior to the other is stupid. Have we forgotten the Inquisition? The great minds like Galileo being punished for being correct?

Well, your first statement is certainly debatable, extremely simply, and typical fodder for the intellectually lazy. Then you mention the Inquisition? Um, what is it about defence lawyers supplied for the accused AND the accused, with their defence lawyer, getting a copy of the accusation (names redacted) in order to be able to mount a defence that you are in horror of? And then you go on about Galileo, too funny. Um, funnily enough Galileo's theories were being taught in all the Catholic controlled universities before, during and after and no one got into any trouble. He caused a controversy as he taught his theory as fact; he was requested to continue teaching as a theory. But he really went before the Inquisition because he stepped into theology. Too short here, but raising these two issues simply demonstrates your ignorance.

[Andy Semple]

44.

What about 9/11, London, Spain, and the countless attacks in Iraq and Afghanistan?

Advice from PuK - Yuk!

[Andy Semple]

45.

re-read post 38

You realy don't know a thing do you, Oldfool.

Why don't you goggle those two scumbags

[Andy Semple]

46.

so you finally acknowledge Tamil Tigers are terrorists?
That's a first.
Another reason why we need tough border controls

[Bohemian Rhapsodi]

47.

These people will tell you that our understanding of White Anglosaxon Culture (which I think is what you mean) is one of lazy, undisciplined, rude, untrustworthy dole bludgers full of beer and self-importance.

Dante is quite contemptuous of the Australian culture. So we have his experience of immigrants, whose limited knowledge of Australian culture is the current one, a result of the last 50 or so years of the progressive, secular attack on our traditional values. Of course, often these immigrants ignore their own cultural faults. Oh, silly me, that's right, only white anglo-saxon/european based cultures can be criticised; all other cultures are quaint and exotic.

I remember learning in Geography in about year 11 about Malaysia and how the Chinese were treated by the native malays......stop with this 'pot kettle black' hypocrisy. There are no cultures in the world without their skeletons in the closet - at least in the western judeo/christian culture we are prepared to drag those skeletons out to exposure and criticism.

[kraka]

48.

In the ocntext I wrote it integration means that people who come here, while allowed to practice and live anyway they chose according to their culture, do not have that right extended to those parts of their culture that do not fit into our society.For example, it is ridiculous that public pools, bought and paid for by Australian taxpayers, are closed to Australians on certain days so muslim woman can swim without male eyes. If they want to swim like that-BUY A POOL. That is an instance where we have assimilated to the migrant instead of the other way around.

What do you not understand by all cultures are not equal-are you dyslexic or stupid.

[kraka]

49.

You truly are pathetic-play the race card like the immature wanker you are. Of course I have-whats that got to do with it. I enjoy kranskies as well-probably because my dad comes from germany. I believe in immigration. I also believe if you are an immigrant you should thank your lucky stars every day that Australia allows you to stay here and show the relevant respect to our laws and culture so that you may remain here. It is the pathetic response from lefties like you that has denigrated the debate into dog whistle politics. You lefties are the truly intolerant people-intolerant of any view that doesn't fit in with your all people are equal crap.

[tee]

50.

You argue well but your basic thrust is Islam is monolithic in interpretation, which it isnt thus who is wrong. Im not arguing for a tit for tat notch up im right youre wrong polemic so often seen on this site which is both childish and boorish, but blanket statements always need correcting. You perhaps have travelled to Islamic countries, maybe an armchair traveller who has read his/her "Understanding Islam" texts well- I dont know. But anyone who has spent any time in an Islamic community of any description is fully aware that there can be various Islamic expressions in the one city or community, right across the range. Your argument falters as you dont acknowledge diversity and in your own fundamentalist way are inflexible to any other understanding of Islam while at the same time projecting a fundamentalist identity onto all Muslims (which is unfair and unbalanced). Enough ranting at your rant. Open debate as you suggest can only be good, but to be so it must be truly open and inclusive.

[kraka]

51.

i couldn't have been bothered replying to the twit BR. They think we are lazy fools and yet they all want to move here. I'm guessing Dante got to know a lot of them talking to them in the dole queue. What was that stat-after 5 yrs over 85% of the middle east illegals still on some sort of government assistance. Who knows, maybe Dumbe is the one who hands them the checks over from his fat ass in the public service.
Our culture is one of a fair go Dumbe. One of work hard and be rewarded (hence the high degree of wealth in this country). One of traditions in sport (The Ashes), in war (The Anzacs), a tradition of punching above our weight against the odds. We are a country built on our Anglo heritage and people want to move here because it's better than living in some tinpot african dictatorship,sth american banana republic, or middle eastern country where a womens clitoris is taken off so she can't experience pleasure during sex. If you think that is racist,islamophobic or xenophobic go ahead and sneer out your slurs. you are in the minority and every 26th of january celebration proves it. it does not matter where I go in the world, whenever i am sitting at a bar the person next to me recognizes the accent and is immediately happy to discuss what a great place Australia and her people are. It's self loathing anti west, anti democractic scumbags like you who give us a bad name.There is no way a majority of other countries citizens would agree with your assessment-you are full of shit.

[kelly liddle]

52.

"However, the MCC is distressed by Opposition and so-called left-leaning groups' inability to recognizing Islamism as a threat to our society," added Gora." http://www.muslimcanadiancongress.org/20110911.html Read a few articles if you want to know what some Muslims think.

[chrisse]

53.

No, Tee, my argument does not falter because of a lack of acknowledgement of "diversity". I'm not arguing "culture". I'm not arguing "muslims". I'm arguing about the islamic ideology as set forth in its authoriative trilogy and implemented throughout history for 1400 years.

It is an apartheid system where there are two "races". You are either a believer, commonly known as muslims, or an unbeliever, known as kuffirs. It is a system of human chattel slavery. It is a system that, with its polygyny and sex slaves, treats women as breeding and fornicating beasts in a man's personal bordello.

If I was arguing about communism, I would do the same. If I was arguing about national socialism, I would do the same. It is as per my example, it's the ideology that forms the basis of the temporal laws that are abusing the human rights of people who have no voice. Today. Now. In the 21st Century. They have no voice because people like you are more concerned about adherents of this ideology in the west who are offended to hear it come under critical analysis; who are offended to hear anything that is not praise for it. Well these adherents in the west are not living in persecution and fear under the islamic ideology, I have no voice for them, they have no need for a voice.

[chrisse]

54.

while at the same time projecting a fundamentalist identity onto all Muslims

This is typical of the lazy counter swipes the islamophiles throw around.

Firstly, do you know all muslims Tee? I don't, and neither do you.

Secondly, I have not referred to "all muslims" anywhere. That's you projecting into my argument the point you want to argue.

I refer to my example above, about cafeteria Catholics. The authoriative Catholic position on abortion is that it is evil and against our faith to have one. That's it, no ifs or buts.

However there are people who claim to be Catholic, and who have had abortions while claiming it's okay as a Catholic to do so. They are wrong. What they claim does not change the authoriative Catholic position. It is they who are in error as Catholics.

This is the same for those who claim to be muslim but, for example, they drink alcohol. Their drinking alcohol does not change the authoriative islamic position on alcohol.

Your claiming that because there is diversity among muslims, this means that the islamic ideology is whatever one wants it to be is incorrect. The islamic ideology has authoriative texts and authoriative interpretations of those texts and authoriative jurisprudence for the governance of civil society. Even between the shia and sunni sects, they have more in common than in difference.

An individual who has labelled himself as a muslim may, in their conscience, be a supporter of universal human rights; the islamic ideology, however, is the antithesis of universal human rights.

[chrisse]

55.

mmmmmm, chrisse is Bohemian Rhapsodi. Typepad is confusing.

[tee]

56.

Thanks Chrisee.

Re:

"They have no voice because people like you are more concerned about adherents of this ideology in the west who are offended to hear it come under critical analysis..."

Really, thanks for informing me what I think. You homogenize I dont. Its that simple. Nice semantics tho...

Ive met and lived with Muslims from all walks of life and of all persuasions; that is my point. No need to rebuff on that as it is moot in terms of 'all Muslims'. Quite a dumb comment and weak rhetoric really.

Not all Muslims are adherents of fundamentalism or Jihad yet you need that to uphold your argument that Islamic ideology is the problem. Which Islamic ideology, which school of jurisprudence, which particular interrpretation? There have been hundreds over the centuries. At least unlike others here you come across as intelligent and thoughtful, keep it up dont be lazy and start with Imam Jaffar as Sadiq, then Bukhari on Jihad for starters; if you already have, then move on to Mutawalli and his numerous detractors, you'll see my point- there is no one Islamic ideology and there is no one interpretation of jurisprudence or Quranic interpretation. Back to square one and best to be more specific or be read as a generalizer.

[tee]

57.

sorry I posted before finishing re your statement:

"They have no voice because people like you are more concerned about adherents of this ideology in the west who are offended to hear it come under critical analysis..."

In fact I am more worried about Muslims in the West who are NOT adherents of a deluded dangerous ideology such as spouted by JI and the effect that essentialist arguments that do not distinguish between different Islamic "ideologies" may have upon them when bandied about by ignorant fearful people who have no idea what they are talking about. This leads to scapegoating and stereotyping at its worst and we all know what that has led to in the past.

Shalom.

[Tom]

58.

Andy you embarrass yourself with your ignorance,

Who blew up the train in Madrid?
Who was responsible for the Russel St Bombing?
Who was responsible for the Oklahoma street bombing?
Who were the weathermen?

The ANC's armed wing conducted a campaign or 'terrorism', they aren't muslim?

Are the KKK muslim?

Who were the Symbionese Liberation Army?
Don't Christian lobbyists assassinate abortionists in acts widely considered terrorism?

If i were you I wouldn't want anybody reading your comment. Apparently you are a respected member of the banking community, a racist one at that, so perhaps be a bit more discreet with your ignorant and historically incorrect views. I guess every-time you say something ignorant you gain a kilo.

[Tom]

59.

*no need for Madrid, apologies !

[Oldman]

60.

#38 What country do you think Bali is a part of?

I ask again, what influence does Abu Bakar Ba'asyir have anywhere but among his extremist followers in Indonesia with regard to Sharia law in Oz or any other country in the West?

You are nothing but a human vuvuzela blowing the same noise out of your backside week after week!

[Tom]

61.

Oldman, these people are fueled by Today Tonight and A Current Affair islamaphobeia, what can you expect ?

I find it hard to believe that the insecure individual behind this article is actually an academic. I seriously thought people of academia had the skills and capabilities to be thorough and rational in their analysis.

[Andy Semple]

62.

In other words your freedom of speech should be greater than mine

Post 9/11 radical fundamentalist Muslims are responsible for the majority of terrorism acts.

A Muslim is as follower of Islam - got nothing to do with race. But that doesn't stop a leftard like you from using the race card.

[Oldman]

63.

Tom, the anti-sharia movement does not only target fundamentalist Islamists but all Muslims when Christians have a much to fear from Muslims as Muslims have to fear from Christians, very little. The bigots here contend that Muslims are a threat to our Judeo-Christian values and way of life when the reality is that it is they who are undermining a successful record of religious tolerance, assimilation and democracy in Oz in attempting to drive a wedge between Muslims and other religions. It should not be allowed to happen.

A terrific article on this subject by ELIYAHU STERN and available in full in the NYT:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/03/opinion/dont-fear-islamic-law-in-america.html?_r=2&hp

[Tom]

64.

Andy, you can say what you want, just have the balls to justify it. If you want to write your opinion, you have the responsibility to back your arguments up with evidence that supports your claims (something that you never actually do as you seem content to simply label people a 'dickhead' or a 'leftard'.

You are not a martyr of free speech, nor was Bolt, rather, just two guys with a chip on their shoulder whose 'opinions' are reactionary, irrational and based on generalizations. Yes, a Muslim is a follower of Islam and not a race, but your narrow and outlandish generalizations essentially tar a religion with a race like prejudice.

You cite and Iraq as a hotbeds of extremist activities. Are you aware of the situation this country ? For one, Iraqi militias forcibly expelled Al-Qaeda operatives from Iraq, rendering that debate useless. The violence in Iraq is a sectarian struggle between the former dominant, elite Sunni's who ruled Iraq for decades (backed by America) , and the oppressed Shiite's vying for power. It is no more extremist than the Catholic-Protestant divide in Northern Ireland. Iraq is also a reflection of American policy and how its ecconomic neglect (disbanding the military, disbanding Ba'ath party and other professional institutions) created a climate of unemployment and harbored dissent and resentment of the Iraqi people. Things are not black and white Andy, although you would say otherwise. You would simply see 'Insurgents' attacking the benevolent American forces simply attempting to install the virtues of peace and democracy in an severely oppressed country. If so, why did America support Saddam for so long?

Moreover, for each time you quote a radical Muslim, it can be easily responded with a dozen radical evangelical quotes can't it? Or are Christians not really that bad? Perhaps read the Old Testament, it is essentially a war inciting, violent episode of Underbelly with less Matthew Newton and more Moses.

You claim that we need to tighten border control to protect our shores from Tamils. Do you know what a Tamil is, Andy? Or are all Tamils terrorists? A Tamil is an ethnicity, but they are nationally still considered Sri Lanken. No race card there from you obviously.....
Are innocent Tamil civilians fleeing the government and LTTE not worthy of our shores? Are they a threat to our way of life? You have no right to say who can come onto our shores Andy, nor can you understand, you have never been persecuted outside of being ridiculed for being bald and looking like Angry Anderson.

[Tom]

65.

So what you are saying Kraka is that to assimilate into Australia you need to be 'White'?

You are deluded.

Every 26th of January we celebrate'

Great, let's just celebrate the disenfranchisement of a native person, preceding genocide.

[chrisse]

66.

@Tee - how very confusing for the islamic majority countries with "secular" jurisprudence subject to shariah. Saudi Arabia must be in a bind as well. I mean, all these variations. What do they do, eenie, meenie, minee, mo? And the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam, subject to shariah, must have been an exercise in madness to formulate.

No, Tee, the islamic ideology is based on the qur'an, hadiths and sunna. There are four schools of jurisprudence - Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i and Hanbali. The islamic ideology is very settled. What you are trying to confuse the issue with is the peripheral differences around the core ideology.

One of my references is Reliance of the Traveller, which is the classic manual of islamic sacred law approved by, amongst others, Al Azhar, which is the closest to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church available in islam.

I also use observation, that is, what is happening in the islamic majority countries to, in particular, non-muslim and non approved muslims.

It disturbs me that you spend so much energy defending this ideology when the majority of people suffering persecution in the world today are suffering due to the islamic ideology and shariah.

[chrisse]

67.

In fact I am more worried about Muslims in the West who are NOT adherents of a deluded dangerous ideology

I agree with the latter part of this statement. However, where we disagree is that those people who label themselves as adherents of the islamic ideology, commonly known as muslims, have to make a decision. If they do not support apartheid, if they do not support human chattel slavery, if they do not support the degradation of women - then accept that they are not muslim.

Very disturbing that you are more concerned about muslims in the West based on supposition rather than real people suffering real persecution without any voice in the islamic majority countries. There is real cultural and religious genocide taking place today in islamic majority countries. Just as the original imperialistic invasion of the islamic hordes led to the cultural and religious genocide of the people in the middle east. Egyptians are not arab, Lebanese are not arab - arabs are from the area we call Saudi Arabia.

Pax Christi

[Tom]

68.

Arabs also inhabit those countries you mentioned Chrissie,

even Israel .It is an ethnicity .

[Andy Semple]

69.

Please be aware everyone that "Tom" and "Willie" share the same IP address XX.XXX.205.137

Posting as someone else is breach of your comments policy.

Pick a name and stick to it or you're going to be removed.

Andy Semple
Assistant Managing Editor
Menzies House

[bluebell]

70.

It's not about being white - it's about those who want to call Australia home OBEYING the laws of the land and not DEMANDING separate parallel institutions. You either come here to be Australian or piss off to a country that is more in keeping with your 'special needs'. There are plenty of them (Muslim) countries that have what they want.....oh, opps, I forgot, most Muslim countries don't have what we have. WELFARE, SUBSIDIZED HOUSING, FREE MEDICAL, FREE SCHOOLING, AND GENEROUS PENSIONS. Yes, when they ask Allah to provide, they mean the dumb Infidel and their equally DUMB Infidel government! Come one come all..........to the land of the SUCKERS!

[Willie]

71.

Bluebell, are you aware that not only Muslims enjoy all of those benefits you outlined?

Also, i'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of Muslim immigrants accept Australian culture.

[bluebell]

72.

[Also, i'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of Muslim immigrants accept Australian culture.]

No - they don't. Their only allegiance is to Islam and Allah. Most will merely tolerate their 'unfortunate' situation of living in a non Muslim environment until the day their numbers are more to their advantage. Already they are pushing for Sharia Law and our supermarket foods to be Halal. Give an inch to these demands and we are on the slippery slope they are already are in France and England.

[Bluebell, are you aware that not only Muslims enjoy all of those benefits you outlined?]

The percentage Muslims on welfare & benefits are disproportionate to those following other religions - besides, the Muslim communities network with one another to get the most out of government handouts - and tell a lot of porkies to get it too.

[Willie]

73.

Ok, ask yourself why the percentage is apparently more consierable. Perhaps it is a soci-economc issue? Perhaps people need assistance to 'assimilate'. These people have made a conscious choice to migrate to Australia by whatever means, and are experiencing an entirely different culture. Do you really think that these people, many who have left the very Islamic dictatorships and governments you speak of, have the means to simply intergrate into our society and culture within a short space of time? These are not established people. Can you also look up statistics citing the number of Muslim families within the lower-socio economic demographic ?

I would also like to see your supposed statistic, please cite your link?

Your first statement is also outlandish and grossly generalized, and once again, please provide information for coming to the conclusion. Your argument basically contends that EVERY muslim in Australia remains resentful of our country. What a load of shit. For all you biggoted souls who condemn immigrants for not 'assimilating', what do you make of Australian batsman, and muslim Usman Khawaja? Or is he the only one? Bachar Houli is a muslim as well, (he plays AFL for the bombers).

"of Muslim immigrants accept Australian culture.]

No - they don't. Their only allegiance is to Islam and Allah. Most will merely tolerate their 'unfortunate' situation of living in a non Muslim environment until the day their numbers are more to their advantage. "

There is no conspiracy taking place, unfortuantely, even if mainstream meadia says otherwise. You cite England and France as case studies. That is a completely different situation. France and England are former colonial powers. Many of the muslim population has orgins in former colonies Pakistan, India, Egpyt, Sudan, Algeria, Morrocco, Tunisia ect ect. They had their freedom and self dtermination repressed for decades, even centuries. Slightly ironic for France, leading civilization and human rights crusader (Declaration of right of man and citizen, Revolution ideals and Declaration of Human Rights - which identifies religious freedom) to complain about their muslim population and introduce laws curtailing these very rights. How will this assist a marginalized section of society? It only compounds the problem and harbors resentmentm, adding to an already serious economical problem.

[kraka]

74.

um-no-YOU said that-i said nothing of a sort-that is just you reading what you want to read so you can tell yourself how morally superior you are.In other words, you have ears and eyes but you cant listen and see.As for your last comment-seriously?-get over yourself. You are a boring,self deluded freak who is thankfully part of the very small minority still trapped in the 18th century class warfare mode.

[bluebell]

75.

And there's many more, only the government tries to hide it from the comatose Australian public.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljYDoqPl-Nw

[bluebell]

76.

The relentless march will continue as they plot their course for an eventual Islamic state in Australia. Won't happen overnight, but will be a gradual process over time, and it's dumbsh*ts like you who are helping their cause.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/sharia-law-at-work-in-australia/story-fn59niix-1226097889992

[bluebell]

77.

Singapore’s presiding genius, Minister Mentor Lee Kuan Yew, on the failure of Muslim integration:

In the book, Mr Lee, when asked to assess the progress of multiracialism in Singapore, said: “I have to speak candidly to be of value, but I do not wish to offend the Muslim community.

“I think we were progressing very nicely until the surge of Islam came, and if you asked me for my observations, the other communities have easier integration - friends, intermarriages and so on, Indians with Chinese, Chinese with Indians - than Muslims. That’s the result of the surge from the Arab states.”

He added: ”I would say today, we can integrate all religions and races except Islam.”

[Lillith]

78.

Bluebell, which book by Yew..would like to read it?

[bluebell]

79.

Here is the book in question Lillith:

http://malaysiasaya.my/lee-kuan-yews-hard-truth-is-haram-jakim

[Lillith]

80.

Thanks sweetness!

[SignedIn]

81.

"Not all Muslims are Terrorists but all Terrorists are Muslims"

I did not know that the Irish Republican Army, the Red Brigade, the Baader Meinhof gang, the Symbionese Liberation Army and Timothy McVeigh were muslim. The things you learn on the internet - wow.

[John Mc]

82.

If you want your responses to be taken as relevant and not be perceived as not-too-sharp tryhard, perhaps you should keep your examples to within the last decade or so.

[bluebell]

83.

Exactly - radical Islam is expanding like a virus in a petri dish. However, the more serious issue becomes the silent Muslim communities that virtually remain quiet to their murderous activities. Yes, those small few that do put their heads above the parapet and denounce what is going on inside the religion of Islam usually pay a personal price for doing so. The fanatics inside their communities have a way of making these people's lives hell. eg: Threatening phone calls, vicious mail, and attacks on personal property. It's already happening inside Western countries, and it's here too. There is an internal war going on between the fanatical Islamists and the moderate. The problem for us is will the moderates inside Islam prevail? And will they stand by us as the religion slides into chaos? Big questions...

[SignedIn]

84.

"Not all Muslims are Terrorists but all Terrorists are Muslims"

And we should not forget the King David Hotel bombing carried out by those extremist islamic jews!

[SignedIn]

85.

I look forward to you denouncing those who harass women going into abortion clinics, and those in the USA who picket soldiers funerals.

[SignedIn]

86.

LoL John Mc .... the truth is too hard for you to accept so you try to ignore it? Placing a caveat on who is a terrorist or what is terrorism?

Try Joseph Stack who flew a plane into a building in Texas in a suicide mission.
The 2004 letter bombing of the Arizona Office of Diversity and Dialogue.
The killing of abortion provider George Tiller.
The plot by Robert Goldstein to attack a local Islamic centre.

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2011/03/09/149537/king-muslims-plots-terrorists/

[John Mc]

87. LoL John Mc .... the truth is too hard for you to accept so you try to ignore it?

LOL, the truth is too hard so I'm ignoring it? And you're downplaying the impact of Islamofascism!! Do you think that in 100 years history is going to record the west underwent a period of endemic islamic terrorism? Yes or no? Do you dispute the largest act of terrorism conducted on American soil was done in the name of Islam? That's wars were fought by the west as a result of this. What about the UK, Spain bomb attacks? Are you claiming there aren't regular events targeted against the west in the name of Islamic terrorism, like this one prosecuted today for instance:

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/extremists-jailed-for-evil-terror-plot-20111216-1oy37.html

No matter how much you stick your head in the sand, history will record that your perspective was retarded, naive, and you were just another left-wing idiot who couldn't admit the truth as their whole ideology would collapse and they'd be exposed as the dip-shits they really are. Another truth you find too hard to accept?

[bluebell]

88.

[I look forward to you denouncing those who harass women going into abortion clinics, and those in the USA who picket soldiers funerals.]

When have I ever supported or condoned such behavior? Just because I don't believe in abortion (accept in dire circumstances) it doesn't mean I support the vile behavior of the ultra religious/ultra right wing fanatics to harass women seeking these services....especially if they are legal and certified to practice.

[bluebell]

89.

Also, let's not forget the Beslan school massacre, and the Moscow Theater massacre. All civilians murdered in cold blood in the name of Islamist separatism.

[bluebell]

90.

Also our resident Islamist dipsh*ts just got 15 years for plotting and planning to murder as many Australian soldiers as they could at the Holesworthy Army Base.

[bluebell]

91.

Extremists jailed for 'evil' terror plot

By Daniel Fogarty and Steve Lillebuen

They are Islamic extremists who see the people of Australia as infidels and planned to become martyrs by shooting up a Sydney army base.

Wissam Mahmoud Fattal, 35, Saney Edow Aweys, 28, and Nayef El Sayed, 27, planned to kill as many people as possible in a mass shooting at Holsworthy Army base to advance the cause of Islam.

It was their way of repaying Australia - the country that had welcomed and nurtured them and their families.

On Friday, the three would-be terrorists remained defiant as Victorian Supreme Court Justice Betty King sentenced them to 18 years in prison.

Lebanese-born Fattal, 35, was ejected from the court just as Justice King began her sentencing remarks.

He stood up and began ranting, "Why don't stop this corruption" and also spoke of Palestine and Afghanistan.

El Sayed, who was born in Australia to Lebanese parents, left his remarks to the end.

As he passed the judge's chair, he said, "Allah gives us justice, not these courts."

They were in no mood to take Justice King's advice and be remorseful for what they had done.

"The fact that Australia welcomed all of you and nurtured you and your families is something that should cause you all to hang your heads in shame that this was the way you planned to show your thanks for that support," she said.

"Your plans were evil. Your intentions, your plan were deadly serious. You intended to plan a random shooting of anyone you found on that army base, be it army personnel, civilian, male or female."

Justice King said it would have been a totally horrific event if their planning had ever come to pass.

She said all three showed no remorse and had not renounced their extremist beliefs.

Fattal was especially rigid in his beliefs, she said.

"The views you have adopted are clearly extremist views in terms of the interpretation of the Koran, including that all persons who are not Muslims and those persons who are Muslims but not practising faithfully, according to you, are people who are infidels," she said.

"You are an intolerant Muslim in that you believe everything has to be done in your way and no other."

During a three-month trial in 2010, the court heard the men wanted to advance Islam, which they believed was under attack from the West, including Australia.

Most of the prosecution case relied on transcripts of secretly recorded telephone conversations.

They picked up strong anti-Australian views, with Somalian-born Aweys even celebrating the death toll in the Black Saturday bushfires.

"These filthy people are coming down, the economy goes first, factories are shutting down, fire is coming and there is no water," he was recorded saying in March 2009.

Fattal was caught on security footage walking around the boundary of the Holsworthy barracks and spoke of winning paradise if he killed Australian soldiers.

"If I find way to kill the army, I swear to Allah the great I'm going to do it," Fattal told an undercover police officer.

The men were arrested in pre-dawn raids across Melbourne in August 2009.

Two other Melbourne men - Yacqub Khayre, 23, of Meadow Heights, and Abdirahman Mohamud Ahmed, 26, of Preston - were cleared by a jury over their alleged roles in the terror plot.

As the sentences were delivered on Friday, family members wailed in shock, including one woman who screamed, "Oh my God!" and covered her mouth.

Fattal, of Melbourne, Aweys, of Carlton, and El Sayed, of Glenroy, were all found guilty of conspiring to prepare for or plan a terrorist act between February and August 2009.

They were ordered to serve a non-parole period of 13 and a half years.

[Barry]

92.

Nice of them to thank us for our hospitality in this way !!!!!
Just shows how brainwashed these people are from an early age .No matter what , they only see one goal.

And we are "Filthy " people????

Wonder what else they have in mind for us?

Factories shutting down??

Wonder who our government is "really " batting for !!!!!!
Don't hear anyone in government with an opinion on these people.

The mind boggles!!

Ahh , but the boats keep coming . And we keep paying.

And they wonder why we are the laughing stock of the world !!!!

[SignedIn]

93.

You poor troll .. it's sad to see those with so much hate in their veins they can't see reality.

There are of course muslim extremists who commit acts of terrorism. I have never denied this.
My point is that not all terrorists are muslim .. as demonstrated by the acts I have outlined.

Do you deny these acts were carried out by non-muslims?

[SignedIn]

94.

"And they wonder why we are the laughing stock of the world !!!!"

Who is laughing? Our economy is the envy of the world. Europe and North America receive many more refugees and asylum seekers by the tens of thousands than we do here.
You have an opinion - fine - but try to base it on fact next time.

[bluebell]

95.

John was eluding to the fact that most of today's terrorist acts are perpetrated by Muslims - do you deny this?

[bluebell]

96.

[Our economy is the envy of the world. Europe and North America receive many more refugees and asylum seekers by the tens of thousands than we do here.]

Australia is only being propped up by Communist China's thirst for our energy products - products that we refuse to use for our own people. Other than that, yes, we are the laughing stock of the world....especially to the Aussie hating nation of Indonesia. They send us illegal boats and we stupidly sent them patrol boats to stop people smugglers. If it wasn't so damned serious it would be laughable. The Indonesian government is HELPING the people smuggling bastards. They know EXACTLY where they are, who are behind the rackets and the organizers at the other end in Australia. They are taunting us...and have done so for decades with the killing of our ABC journalists, the arrests and trials of dumb Aussie druggies, and are now throwing mud in our faces with severe live cattle cuts. It's the Indonesian shadow play....and our DUMB sh*ts in Canberra are no match for the seasoned serial LIARS sitting in Jakarta who are experts at playing the game of deception!! We send them rivers of money to build Muslim schools, rebuild their cities in towns in Achec after the tsunami and what do we get for our GENEROSITY & GULLIBILITY??? Gimme something - one thing that Indonesia has done for the benefit of Australia, other than to kill 88 of our citizens and pretend to bring the mass murderers to justice and throw away the key in gross mock trials.

[Lillith]

97.

One day you folk that demean and accuse, will look back and proclaim..."Oh my god, they were right, how where we so foolish"? By then it might be too late..lets hope not!

[Barry]

98.

[You have an opinion - fine - but try to base it on fact next time.]

Just read a little of "bluebell" below.....

My apologies for not presenting facts.... however, only a blind man cannot see what is going on here. Or perhaps one who does not "want" to see????

[bluebell]

99.

[Gimme something - one thing that Indonesia has done for the benefit of Australia, other than to kill 88 of our citizens and pretend to bring the mass murderers to justice and throw away the key in gross mock trials.] T

That should have read as follows:

Gimme something - one thing that Indonesia has done for the benefit of Australia, other than to kill 88 of our citizens and pretend to bring the mass murderers to justice in gross mock trials....and to add to that they are feted as heroes when in jail, get the best treatment and have their 'sentences' continuously reduced by Presidential decree. Stark contrast to how our people are treated inside Indonesian jails for dope offenses. The Indonesians are making fun of us and those sycophants in Canberra keep fawning over a nation that despises us at the official level. Despite countless requests to bring the killers of the Balibo five to justice, the Indonesian government continues to protect the very people responsible for their deaths. What schmucks we are, trembling in our diplomatic boots.....afraid of the nation that has 240 (and rapidly increasing) million Muslims with no love for Australia. That's the reality....despite KRudd's endless groveling.

[bluebell]

100.

The Muslim Express continues:

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/wheres-my-visa-and-my-house-the-first-question-asylum-seekers-ask/story-e6frfku0-1226224511992

Come one come all to the land of the SUCKERS!
Gillard will merely TAX the sh*t out of Australian families to pay for her new imported voting block!!