The Necessity of Gun Control

Gun control makes most Australians feel safer in their communities, writes Stephan Knoll.

A major difference between conservatives in Australia and their counterparts in the US is the level of importance placed on the right to bear arms. Whilst US conservatives vehemently support the right to bear arms and politically speaking are significantly influenced by the National Rifle Association, in Australia it was actually a conservative Prime Minister, John Howard who championed and achieved gun reform - risking relations with many on his own side of politics.

Numerous recent articles have discussed gun control and/or the futility of it. Those arguing against gun control rely on statistics such as comparative death rates and types of weapon used. John Howard rebutted these arguments and forged ahead with gun reforms, knowing that reforms would serve a much higher social purpose than just keeping guns off of the streets.

John Howard understood that in the wake of the Port Arthur tragedy, something needed to be done - not only to ease the growing fears of Australians, but to instil faith in a new Government. Whether the gun reforms he put in place actually reduced the risk of gun related deaths is negligible – the fact is his actions made Australians feel safe. This was effective in the same way that the purpose of a safety demonstration at the start of an aeroplane flight is designed to show that the crew are prepared for an emergency and to ease the minds of passengers, regardless of whether or not the demonstrated brace position will actually save lives in the event of a plane crash.

One of the major drives behind gun control measures is to be able to offer Australians a sense of safety and security in helping to alleviate gun related fear. This is not to say that some of these fears are irrational or unfounded, but they nonetheless remain real. A society that feels safe is more likely to invest in the long term, take on risks that enable the economy to grow, view Australia as a place to raise a family and resist calls for a change in government.

The phrase ‘guns don’t kill people, people kill people’ may certainly be correct, however the tried and true response to this still applies: ‘true, but it is harder to kill someone without a gun’ - and this is why in Australia there is no automatic right to own a firearm. There is however a right for all Australians to feel safe within their own communities. 

Stephan is General Manager of family meat and smallgoods business Barossa Fine Foods. He is also heavily involved in the Young Liberal movement in South Australia.

Comments

[Tim Andrews]

1.

Note: for a contrary view, please check out this piece we published earlier entitled "The Futility of Gun Control":

http://www.menzieshouse.com.au/2010/04/the-futility-of-gun-control.html

(TVA)

[Vikas Nayak]

2.

Just no.

But thanks for adding another reason to hate conservatives on the list.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ju4Gla2odw

From my COLD...DEAD...HANDS *julie bishop death stare*

[.]

3.

"John Howard rebutted these arguments and forged ahead with gun reforms"

No he didn't. Furthermore, Martin Bryant is simply an evil prick who should have been hanged.

Look up the longest possible data series from AIC and you can see for yourself. They have data from around 1914 onwards.

1. There was no correlation between guns and crime in the 1950s. We still had the death penalty.

2. From the 1970s, all crime rates fall from a high, as investigative methods become better and sentence eventually toughen up.

3. Guns don't cause suicide, they merely are means to an end. When guns become scarce, other methods are used. Similarly with other crimes/incidents.

4. There is no proof that guns cause crime.

5. Gun control doesn't stop serial or mass murder (Milat killed &+ after NSW gun control), (Childers saw 22 people murdered with arson).

"A society that feels safe is more likely to invest in the long term, take on risks that enable the economy to grow, view Australia as a place to raise a family and resist calls for a change in government."

America and Switzerland don't have capital markets?

Canada has lax gun laws. They also have developed capital markets.

What the hell are you talking about here? Did you meet some investors who watched Bowling for Columbine?

*resist calls for a change of Government*

What the hell does this mean or what good does it serve? Rudd won an election in 2007 because key seats in Queensland had a lot of gun owners?

" ‘true, but it is harder to kill someone without a gun’"

The concealed nature of edged weapons and their efficacy rebutts this. Look at what a fork does. Trauma caused by a fork is absolutely fricking brutal. As does the increase in firearm related shootings after Port Arthur (Monash etc).

Gun control has stopped recent shootings between Sydney 1%er's has it?

"This was effective in the same way that the purpose of a safety demonstration at the start of an aeroplane flight is designed to show that the crew are prepared for an emergency and to ease the minds of passengers, regardless of whether or not the demonstrated brace position will actually save lives in the event of a plane crash."

This is not the way to run a country.

"He is also heavily involved in the Young Liberal movement in South Australia."

There's your problem. SA is known for Alexander's fishnets, not playing any kind of rugby football, having cops buy their own bullets and the worst serial killers in Australian history.

Should we ban bank vaults in SA?

[TimP]

4.

Basically what you're saying is that the pro-gun control arguments are all essentially emotional while the anti-gun control arguments are all essentially factual. Which of course means that the only reason that gun control makes any sense what so ever is rampant ignorance within our society. This is the same approximate logic as the existence of "fat-cat business managers" makes the "poor, downtrodden working-class" feel bad, so they (the business managers) should have their property confiscated and be thrown out on the street, never mind whether this would actually help or hurt the working-class, it makes them feel better so it's all good.

I do understand that sometimes it could be a political necessity to introduce such policies*, but that still doesn't make them anything other bad policy.

* I don't like this part of our political system at all, but I have trouble blaming the politicians for this, afterall the government is corrupt because the people are corrupt.

[Clinton Mead]

5.

No he didn't. Furthermore, Martin Bryant is simply an evil prick who should have been hanged.

I disagree.

Hanging him would have still resulted in around thirty unnecessary deaths.

He should have been shot within seconds by one of the good citizens in the cafe that day. Then the number of innocents slaughtered would have been two or three, not 35.

[Michael Sutcliffe]

6.

One of the major drives behind gun control measures is to be able to offer Australians a sense of safety and security in helping to alleviate gun related fear. This is not to say that some of these fears are irrational or unfounded, but they nonetheless remain real.

This is the same argument for the carbon tax: it makes people feel better to know the environment is being looked after, and the very real fear that humanity's overbearing presence could be hurting the environment is alleviated and a sense of security that the government has more power to act if necessary. As Tim P points out above, it's the same justification for workforce red tape and subsidising inefficient industries: it makes people feel better and more secure that their jobs are safe and the government has control of their welfare. In fact, it's the justification for endless amounts of bad policy.

Generally I think you'll find successful nations base their policy on facts and unsuccessful ones have declining standards of living wrapped in the red tape of policy based in feelings.

[Clinton Mead]

7.

There is however a right for all Australians to feel safe within their own communities.

I would feel much safer in a restaurant or bank if I knew everyone carrying a firearm.

Where's my rights?

[Dan Nolan]

8.

Gun loathing comes from fear and uncertainty regarding firearms. This piece isn't particularly compelling in that it implies a safety and comfort regarding firearms to the unknown regarding ownership.

It's obvious in Australia that criminals have firearms. I mean it's not even a utilitarian argument about the availability of firearms.

The point is this, a firearm is just like a car, it requires training to operate effectively and safely. We do not make policy regarding cars based on statistical outliers, nor should we make policy regarding firearms.

Are we not adults? If so, are we not both entitled to the rights we have and the responsibilities for our actions?

Surely if the government is saying "Oh no guns are much too dangerous for your laypeople to use and possess without a great deal of rigamarole" isn't that an abrogation of our rights as individual citizens to do what we wish with our own property? A federal gun ban is a joke. If certain states wish to be tough on guns, so be it, if others don't wish to be, so be it as well.

We're adults, if we have the inherent capability to drive a car which is a dangerous tool, we should be able to own a gun for whatever reason we desire.

[Dan Nolan]

9.

An Armed society is a polite society.

[Vince Schultz]

10.

If guns were legal, I would buy one in a heartbeat! If I could find one on the black market now, I would buy one.

Has anyone complied a list of crimes and deaths committed by knifes? I have a friend that keeps every article that involves crime with knives and its a very thick file.

Most deaths by guns are done buy law enforcement.

No, bring back the right to bear arms.

[TerjeP]

11.

This has got to be the dumbest argument I have ever heard in favour of gun control. If it is representative of conservative thinking then god help us all. Next you will be telling us that homosexuals should be locked up because those with homophobia have a right to feel safe. That Muslims should be locked up because they scare people. That men should live with a curfew because women feel scared going out on the streets at night. The number of irrational phobias is massive. Heck some people are scared of conservatives. These are personal problems, not a basis for public policy. If some people have gun phobia then send them to a psychologist.

John Howard was being a populist not a leader. His gun laws diminish him substantially.

[pk]

12.

"I would feel much safer in a restaurant or bank if I knew everyone carrying a firearm.

Where's my rights?"

What an extreme siege mentality you have, as a resident one of the safest countries in the world, your paranoia is startling. Are you too scared to talk to strangers too? Do you think your next door neighbour grannie is out to poison you? That every cab driver is out to stab and rob you?

I DO feel much safer in a restaurant or bank knowing everyone IS NOT carrying a firearm. I am glad my rights for an gunless society are being upheld.

The more guns are around in quantity, the more they sink into the hands of the black market, teenagers, vigilanties, and the mentally ill.
I have lived in many of the suburbs where criminal gangs have successfully offed each other with guns for years (inner city melbourne- underbelly anyone?) and I have never felt unsafe, if you choose to live by the gun , you'll die by it too, and leave the rest of us to our peaceful lives.

oh and you can save your super hero fantasies for your wank bank boys.

[Stephan Knoll]

13.

Violence begets violence. Opportunity leads to outcomes. The mere presence of a deadly weapon out in the street leads ones thoughts to that of mortality.

There is no right to a gun. As liberals and conservatives we believe in freedom up until our individual choices impinge on the freedoms of others.

The argument that we have a right to a firearm is false. What need to we have to have a fireman unless it is to be used illegally (except in rural or recreational examples)?

The idea that guns are good for self defence is of itself an argument for failure of the system. Should we legalise all drugs because we can't stop the black market? No.

[.]

14.

"I disagree.

Hanging him would have still resulted in around thirty unnecessary deaths."

Good point. But capital punishment of duly convicted murderers does have a disincentive effect.

[.]

15.

It was safer in the 1950s when we had the death penalty, lax gun laws and even poorer policing techniques.

"The more guns are around in quantity, the more they sink into the hands of the black market, teenagers, vigilanties, and the mentally ill."

The horse has bolted. Your argument is redundant.

"I have lived in many of the suburbs where criminal gangs have successfully offed each other with guns for years (inner city melbourne- underbelly anyone?) and I have never felt unsafe, if you choose to live by the gun , you'll die by it too, and leave the rest of us to our peaceful lives."

All bought on the black market. Gun laws do nothing.

"oh and you can save your super hero fantasies for your wank bank boys."

This is what it comes down to - you think you're right because you're amazed that something in your pants looks big when you play with it.

[.]

16.

"Violence begets violence. Opportunity leads to outcomes. The mere presence of a deadly weapon out in the street leads ones thoughts to that of mortality."

No that's crap. The evidence does not say that happens.

There is a right to self defence. At least on your own property the right to a firearm should be unequivocal.

"The idea that guns are good for self defence is of itself an argument for failure of the system. Should we legalise all drugs because we can't stop the black market? No."

Yes.

[Dan Ryan]

17.

When you restrict the ability of law-abiding people to own a gun you empower the strong at the expense of the weak and strengthen the hand of criminals.

Gun-ownership provides protection to the poor vulnerable granny against the strong criminal thug.

Martin Bryant should have been shot dead by a law-abiding citizen with a gun after the first shots went off and before he was able to go on that rampage. Massacres almost inevitably occur in places like schools, universities and other "gun-free zones".

There is even a suggestion that John Howard in his recently published autobiography came belatedly to appreciate this. When chatting to Condoleezza Rice in the US (many years after the Port Arthur shooting) she told him that the first thing her father taught her when growing up in rural Alabama was how to use a gun. At the time, like many black families in the South, the threat of racial violence was a real possibility.

Why should her family not have been able to own a gun?

Where does it end? Next you'll be banning bullbars...

http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2011/02/16/208001_hpopinion.html

[Leigh Lowe]

18.

The author is not related to Grassy Knoll perchance?

[Andy]

19.

Three tragedies happened at Port Arthur
One: Innocent people were murdered by an armed MAD MAN.
Two: Our Liberty was further eroded.
Three: It was a failing of the mental health system (which is still stuffed) that lead to the massacre.
It would have been nice if such bans had stopped criminals and the mentally ill from using guns. But, alas, the results are invariably the same, whether the ban is put in place for college campuses, cities, or entire nations: gun bans disarm the law-abiding, not criminals. Instead of making victims safer, they make criminals safer.
I sincerely hope, Stephan, that your family meat and smallgoods business - Barossa Fine Foods is never a victim of an armed hold up.

IWhen a government controls both the economic power of individuals and the coercive power of the state ... this violates a fundamental rule of happy living: Never let the people with all the money and the people with all the guns be the same people.
- PJ O’Rourke

[Michael Sutcliffe]

20.

There is no right to a gun. As liberals and conservatives we believe in freedom up until our individual choices impinge on the freedoms of others.

In a free society should you have the right to use force to defend yourself? Do you have a right if you are denied the means to uphold it?

[Michael Sutcliffe]

21.

PK: Are you too scared to talk to strangers too? Do you think your next door neighbour grannie is out to poison you? That every cab driver is out to stab and rob you?

Nope. That's why I don't care if they have a gun. You're the one who's terrified of people. I have enough trust in people to believe giving them freedom will result in greater good.

[pk]

22.

bwahahahaaaaa.

Freedom- oh I am soooooo sorry i am trampling on your rights to carry a weapon which can kill instantly from metres away. But just remind me - what can't you do now that owning a handgun would enable you to do? (apart from fullfilling a vigilante fantasy, boardering on fetish)

[Clinton Mead]

23.

What an extreme siege mentality you have, as a resident one of the safest countries in the world, your paranoia is startling. Are you too scared to talk to strangers too? Do you think your next door neighbour grannie is out to poison you? That every cab driver is out to stab and rob you?

pk:

Quite the contrary. I believe the vast majority of Australians are good, responsible people, and that is why I would feel comfortable with them carrying firearms. I even believe the vast majority of teenagers, and the vast majority of the mentally ill, will be responsible with firearms, and I reject what seems to be the implication that these groups are irresponsible or morally corrupt.

Furthermore, the extremely small minority that aren't responsible can already obtain firearms usually legally and if not illegally.

Unlike you seem to, I don't believe the Australian people would descend into mass violence if ordinary Australians were armed.

It is you that is paranoid.

[Clinton Mead]

24.

You beat me to it Michael.

[Clinton Mead]

25.

pk: Are you suggesting the police should not have firearms?

If you think it is necessary for the police to carry firearms, presumably to protect people, why do you believe that protection is only important when there is a police officer in the vicinity?

[Felicity]

26.

What all the male gun nuts posting here forget is that the vast majority of Australians don't want US-style gun laws. They don't themselves want to own guns or for others to own guns (in general).

We see what sort of society this has produced in America where nuts regularly go apeshit and shoot up shopping centres and schools, assassinate political leaders, gangs shoot up neighbourhoods, men their spouses and children and so on.

We don't want that here. We're strange like that.

[Clinton Mead]

27.

You can pick other examples like Switzerland, where the murder rate is less than half of Australia and the U.K. yet the government hands out assault rifles.

The US murder rate is a cultural issue. It's their trigger happy attitude evidenced by their abhorrent foreign policy.

I don't think Australians have that attitude. Only 30 years ago, it was not an issue for people to obtain semi-automatic firearms unlicensed in some states and carry them home. Yet, Australia was not awash with gun violence.

Indeed, during the invasion of Iraq, Australian soldiers often pulled out of U.S. directed missions, because the Australian forces could not positively identify the target as non-civilian, much to the annoyance of the Americans.

I believe the U.S. murder rate is more a reflection of their immoral drug war, their trigger happy violent attitude from their government and army, and their historical social and increasingly economic problems than the prevalence of firearms.

[J Thomson]

28.

I suppose at the end of the day it comes down to priorities and your view of the role of Government. Personally I don't believe the Government should restrict the rights of law abiding citizens do do anything, including own and use firearms, unless its clearly shown that the activity causes harm to others. The impact of the gun laws has had a negligible impact on gun fatalities and it's arguable the inability of Australians to defend their homes is a factor in the high rate of home invasion and burglaries we have in this country.

John Howard explicitly acknowledges in Lazarus Rising that the gun laws restricted the rights of Australians, particularly the rural population, to make surburban women feel safer from an irrational fear. How any conservative can argue that people's rights should be infringed to assuage the irrational fears of other citizens is beyond me.

[Felicity]

29.

Guns make murder especially mass murder easy. The contributing factors are many but the bottom line is that a gun culture is a violent culture.

Furthermore, any person who has been trained by the military or the police to use guns should not be allowed to own a gun for personal use. These people are potentially dangerous to others. If they've actually killed people in the course of their work they've been brutalised as human beings and should be treated as potential murderers.

People should be free to live in a society in which they feel and are safe - as far as that is possible. Liberalised gun laws work against that.

[Tim Andrews]

30.

Switzerland actually had a referendum yesterday on gun laws, which was overwhelmingly rejected. And I think considering most people who have guns in Switzerland have had some military training through their 'citizens army', that their low gun crime rate somewaht repudiates Felicity's point...
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/swiss-stick-to-their-guns-in-weapons-vote-2213880.html

(TVA)

[Andy]

31.

WTF!
Furthermore, any person who has been trained by the military or the police to use guns should not be allowed to own a gun for personal use. These people are potentially dangerous to others. If they've actually killed people in the course of their work they've been brutalised as human beings and

should be treated as potential murderers

.

You’re weird, Felicity.

The problem, Felicity, there isn’t a Cop on every corner.

Nine-year-old Tucson girl Christina-Taylor Green was fatally shot after her neighbours invited her to go along to a political meeting.
Christina-Taylor was one of six people killed when gunman Jared Lee Loughner opened fire at US congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords's meeting in Tucson, Arizona on January 8, 2011.
The gunman shot at least 18 people, including Ms Giffords, who survived a single gunshot to the head.
Had someone else been armed, maybe the death and injury toll would have been lower? Maybe young Christina-Taylor Green would still be alive?

[Andy]

32.

PK,Suppose your family is being stalked by a criminal who intends on harming them. Would you feel safer putting up a sign in front of your home with the message: "This Home is a Gun-Free Zone"? Probably not. The sign would only tell criminals that they would meet little resistance if they attacked.

[Andy]

33.

TVA,
One only has to look at the consistent failures of gun bans in US cities Washington D.C. and Chicago. Murder rates in both places soared after bans were imposed. The just-released FBI crime numbers for 2009 show that murders and other violent crime rates plummeted after the Supreme Court struck down D.C.'s gunlock and handgun ban law in 2008. D.C.'s murder rate fell by an astounding 23 percent in 2009 about three times the US national drop in murder rates as well as for cities of similar size. The drop in murder and other violent crime has continued in 2010, with the numbers available through July 2010 showing a total drop in murders of about 36 percent over two years.

Reference: John R. Lott, Jr. Economist and author of the just released revised edition of "More Guns, Less Crime" (University of Chicago Press, 2010).

Examining all the multiple-victim public shootings with two or more victims in the United States from 1977 to 1999 Lott found that when states passed right-to-carry laws, these attacks fell by an astounding 60 percent. Deaths and injuries from multiple-victim public shootings fell on average by 78 percent. And to the extent that these attacks still occur in states with right-to-carry laws, they overwhelming occur in those few places where concealed handguns are not allowed. Gun free zones served as magnets for these attacks.
The desire to ban guns is understandable, but it is dangerous, too

[.]

34.

Get a grip. Look at Childers.

Are you going to ban cigarette lighters and fossil fuels "for the vanity of mowed lawns and the hollywood image of smoking"...

FFS...a nail gun is pretty bloody dangerous. They are rather like a crude single shot semi auto sub machine gun.

[.]

35.

No they don't and the stats bear this out.

"Furthermore, any person who has been trained by the military or the police to use guns should not be allowed to own a gun for personal use."

Actually they are amongst the most trustworthy given safety and police checks.

"These people are potentially dangerous to others. If they've actually killed people in the course of their work they've been brutalised as human beings and should be treated as potential murderers."

No, that's prejudicial Stalinist crap.

"People should be free to live in a society in which they feel and are safe - as far as that is possible. Liberalised gun laws work against that."

That's a load of crap. We all have the right to self defence and on your own property gun rights should be unequivocal. Shared spaces are contentious but local rules can prevail.

It's also nonsense - no one feels safer knowing criminals can buy a gun with no checks or cooling off periods.

Guns are also expensive, even when legal. You're spouting a bunch of nonsense.

[Paul]

36.

An excellent article by Stephen Knoll and some excellent points made by pk.

Australia is not America. Our culture is markedly different with regard to guns.
The United States is a nation that was founded on a war. Australia is not.

John Howard acted bravely and sensibly in the aftermath of Port Arthur and, as he notes in Lazarus Rising, was able to achieve a measure of respect from people who would normally be antipathetic towards him.

[Michael Sutcliffe]

37.

We see what sort of society this has produced in America where nuts regularly go apeshit and shoot up shopping centres and schools, assassinate political leaders, gangs shoot up neighbourhoods, men their spouses and children and so on.

We don't want that here. We're strange like that.

If Australia had 15 times the population it currently has, the level of racial and social diversity that America has, accepted the level of immigration (both legal and illegal) that America does and had an economic downturn resulting in 10% unemployment like America currently has, then Australian society would look worse than the current Egyptian revolution. It is precisely the 'American values' (including the Second Amendment) that have allowed America to remain the world leading nation it is despite these problems.

Guns make murder especially mass murder easy. The contributing factors are many but the bottom line is that a gun culture is a violent culture.

The greatest single acts of mass murder in America were done without firearms. If America didn't have a single firearm these crimes would have still occurred. China regulates and disempowers it's citizens to the nth degree, but this still continues:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Chinese_school_attacks

Furthermore, the real bottom line is a pretend benign culture that promises everyone is safe 'cause the government says so and no one has the right or means to look after themselves always the one were the poor and weak are subject to the greatest levels of crime and unable to do anything about it.

[Alex]

38.

John Howard should have received a gold medal for bringing in gun control laws in this country. Otherwise the gun nuts would have taken us down the crazy Yank path of the U.S.National Riflemans Assn of open slather with AK 47's or a pistol in your pocket. Thank God we haven't got a stupid Constitution like they have, with the right to bear arms, which really only applied in the 1770's because they were always frightened the British would invade. Now they use it to shoot and kill lots of kids in high schools. Just look at the number of deaths caused by firearms in the good old USA in all spheres of American society.

[pk]

39.

"PK,Suppose your family is being stalked by a criminal who intends on harming them."

Andy time to lay -off the action movies, I'm willing to bet my life on that not EVER happening. I don't consort with criminals and they mostly shoot their own, as records in Melbourne from the last 20 years will attest. Innocent bystander are rare, if non-existent in this country.

We all actually know most homocides occur in this country by people who are KNOWN TO THEIR VICTIM. The boozed-up old man having a handgun is just gonna make it easier to off the missus when she gets lippy- eh? Instead of putting her in hospital with his fists.

Like I said a serious hard-on for vigilante arming-up against a threat which simply does not exist in this country.

"We all have the right to self defence"

Buy yourself a doberman if you are that paranoid.

[steven]

40.

A fear of weapons is a sign of retarded sexual and emotional maturity” - Sigmund Freud.
When guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns.
After a shooting spree, they always want to take the guns away from the people who didn't do it.
''Now they’re trying’ to take my guns away
And that would be just fine
If you take ‘em away from the criminals first
I’d gladly give you mine.''
Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."""
When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away.

[Andy]

41.

Well given the yanks in their short history as a country have experienced one Revolution and one Civil War then maybe, just maybe you can understand why they have the 2nd amendment – the Right for citizens to bear arms.
Mao and Stalin only managed to murder 20 million each of their fellow citizens too.
Why - because the citizens of Russia and China were unarmed.

A state the takes away the means for its citizens to protect and defend themselves is one giant step closer to Tyranny.
Why do you think Egypt erupted in protest?
It was because the Egyptian citizens had finally had a gut full of the brutality of living in a Police State.

[.]

42.

Canada has no enshrined right but laxer gun laws and lower overall and gun violence rates.

Australia had virtually no gun laws in the 1950s where overall and gun crime was low.

Why do you want to turn Australia into America?

[Andy]

43.

LMAO
PK,
You keep believing that.

Well said, Steven.
When seconds count between living or dying, the police are only minutes away...

[.]

44.

John Howard should be remembered as our highest taxing PM who ushered in dreadful gun laws which Dr Don Weatherburn (a respected NSW criminologist) has over time, come around to see as counter productive.

Howard also squibbed on civil liberties and gave ASIO extraordinary powers which have not materially empowered it's officers.

Your post is just Yank bashing.

They have a brilliant freedom loving constitution. Why do you hate freedom?

The Canucks have laxer guns laws and less crime/violence.

The British did invade once more.

Police cannot shoot to kill except in self defence etc. This has NOTHING to do with the 2nd amendment.

The US mass murder rate is unenviable but what about Russia's serial murder rate? The mass murders are comparable to what happens in anti gun places like the UK. Gun laws did not prevent Dunblane etc.

"Just look at the number of deaths caused by firearms in the good old USA in all spheres of American society."

Most of that, plus their really high incarceration rate is because of the war on drugs.

In fact it is bleedingly obvious and if you cannot see that, just look south to the semi militarised zone of Mexico.

The beltway murderers were effectively domestic Islamist terrorists. Do you think they'd give a crap about gun registration etc?

No one here has given a good reason why self defence and on your own property, gun rights, should be abrogated.

[Michael Sutcliffe]

45.

I'd say John Howard raised common awareness of the risk of big-government conservatism and gave a significant boost to the classical liberal right. He played a large part in the raising of sites like this, where so many of the contributors consider themselves liberals but bag out big-government conservatism. He probably could have cemented the right, but stand-out things like his gun laws, his high taxes and extra levies, his rebuilding of the public service to new heights after cutting it back etc have made large slab of the right realise he represents part of the Liberal Party that isn't in line with their support.

I like to say John Howard is our second greatest prime minister, but that shows the mediocre and uninspired nature of Australian politics.

[Andy]

46.

This coming from Paul “I’m for less Liberty but I still pretend to be a conservative who really likes Government intervention” McCormack.
And you think PK makes a good point??
LMAO
How wonderful the world would have been had only the USSR had the nukes and no one else to stand up against them

[Jenny]

47.

The Egyptian Revolution you referred to was successful precisely because its leaders consciously bypassed the use of violence most especially via the use of guns. The violence was wanted by Mubarak but the canny protesters knew better. And who won that round, eh?

If Australian society was to look like Egypt given all your provisos that would be because it suffers from global financial and economic policies and structures that distort, undermine and prevent its development. Like Egypt it would never be able to economically develop and be a fully industrialised democracy so long as the US, the IMF and World Bank in cohorts with bought-off local satraps and Israel were allowed to continue to rig the game in their interests.

[pk]

48.

"It was because the Egyptian citizens had finally had a gut full of the brutality of living in a Police State."

And just how did they dispose of their leader? Peaceful, GUNLESS revolution. Those protesters knew if they started to get seriously violent the regime would use it as an excuse to open fire on their own and the army (instead of holding off) would have gone to town. Hell, they had secret police out trying to start violence in order to destablise the protestors - who very smartly - held out peacefully and with the aid of technology and cohesive grit (did you see those muslims and christians protecting each other whilst in prayer?) succeeded, where armed revolution could never.

Sorry to break it to you but It's just not the 18th century anymore.

[.]

49.

"We all actually know most homocides occur in this country by people who are KNOWN TO THEIR VICTIM."

They still occur with gun laws? Then they are a redundant waste as Dr Don Weatherburn has come to realise.

"I don't consort with criminals and they mostly shoot their own, as records in Melbourne from the last 20 years will attest."

Criminals kill other criminals with gun control and you think this is a reason to take guns away from peaceable civilians?

You then bring up the old myth that men are the typical abusers in domestic violence.

"We all have the right to self defence"

That's non negotiable.

You don't like guns and have a superior attitude over anyone who wants one for any reason. Your reasons don't even make sense.

Get over yourself.

[.]

50.

The Army refused to support Mubarak.

That is all.

[Jenny]

51.

The right to bear arms of the incipient American nation paved the way for the wholesale slaughter of its native population, the decimation of much of its wildlife, including millions of buffalo, birds, wolves, and the forced slavery of millions of Africans which itself led to one of the bloodiest civil wars in human history.

Great stuff.

[.]

52.

They didn't need to because the Army decided not to shoot civilians, instead they kissed babies.

With your GUNS=MURDER meme, you would have predicted massacres and the strengthening of the regime.

"Hell, they had secret police out trying to start violence in order to destablise the protestors - who very smartly - held out peacefully and with the aid of technology and cohesive grit (did you see those muslims and christians protecting each other whilst in prayer?) succeeded, where armed revolution could never."

If they shot the secret police, the Army may have joined in on the civilian side.

Of course such a regime would never take hold in an armed society. You pretend this fact doesn't exist.

[.]

53.

The Army slaughtered the natives, they were armed themselves...Buffalo are coming back thanks in part to private efforts of Ted Turner etc, Wolves are coming back and the slave trade was enshrined by the British before they adopted the Federal Constitution or were even independent.

Jenny, no offence, but have you passed high school?

[pk]

54.

I only have a superior attitude when confronted with people trying in vain to convince others that people are always out there just waiting to stalk and kill them with guns- which is simply not the case.

And yes, sorry to break it to you but men ARE the abusers in the majority of domestic violence and domestic murder - which kills more people than any bogeymen you believe in.

I feel well safe in my gunless society and are happy to keep it that way -move to america if you want 'the right to arms'. You can stockpile guns in your bunkers there while you're at it.

[Jenny]

55.

The extremely high imprisonment rate of the US is due primarily to its criminalisation of poverty which surprise surprise has a racial and ethnic minority tint.

You're just a white supremacist.

[Michael Sutcliffe]

56.

Andy time to lay -off the action movies, I'm willing to bet my life on that not EVER happening.

PK, you live in a fantasy world and I'm betting you're about 16.

Without thinking, here's the events that have directly affected me where decent people are left out in the cold (or would be left out) if they couldn't defend themselves:

1. Raised largely by my mum in a semi-rural area. When I was about four or five a man started to hang around our house but didn't approach us. One night my mum was going outside but out the corner of her eye she saw the guy waiting near the wall. She jumped back inside grabbed a grabbed a carving knife and called the police who said they'd attend. We waited but it was getting dark and mum was frightened he'd cut the power and phone to house and break in through a fibro wall, so my mum being a country woman loaded up the shotgun and went outside. He was still there but ran when he saw the gun. I still wonder 25 years later whether he was going to rape my mum or whether his intention was to rob us, beat us up or even kill us.

2. My mum, now elderly and living in Penrith two years ago. My brother was sleeping in the spare room by chance when a hand came through the window at 2:00am. A guy at jimmied it open and was coming in because she lives alone. I don't think my mum could shoot a shotgun anymore but she could certainly operate something smaller.

3. This Christmas just gone, same mum, same house but other side. I asked my mum why the flyscreens were removed. She said they'd been cut. I asked if she'd reported it to the police. She said yes, but the police told her he comes around every year around this time and the neighbours confirmed it.

[pk]

57.

"Of course such a regime would never take hold in an armed society."

Didn't know guns were totally banned in Egypt and Iran and Burma and north Korea....oh wait..................

[Michael Sutcliffe]

58.

move to america if you want 'the right to arms'. You can stockpile guns in your bunkers there while you're at it.

I'm getting there. It's not as easy as it sounds.

[.]

59.

You're just an idiot.

"criminalisation of poverty "

US Code Title and Chapter please.

[.]

60.

"I feel well safe in my gunless society and are happy to keep it that way -move to america if you want 'the right to arms'. You can stockpile guns in your bunkers there while you're at it."

But you DON'T live in a gunless society. You're just living with a false sense of security.

The data and stats bear this out. You're using your views of others as some kind of reasoning tool.

PS I only want a couple of guns for recreational shooting.

A nail gun is just as deadly as an SLR in the context of a shooting rampage or robberies/domestic murders.

[pk]

61.

I think that says more about being in a rural area, than about gun control Michael.

BTW being female, I have an insight to self preservation and getting myself out of dangerous situations in day to day life than you would ever be able to fathom. And yes, I still feel safer in this country than I did when I was in Texas, that's for sure.

[Jenny]

62.

oh for crissakes men will always hang around, be peeping toms, drop their daks, perv, be where women don't want them to be. Welocme to Women's World.

There's no need to wave a gun in their face to get rid of them. Women have many strategies for dealing with all this all of them non-violent and in most cases the men aren't a genuine physical threat at all. They're just men being men.

Why do you think all men are so frighteningly dangerous?

[Vikas Nayak]

63.

The american bill of rights reflects the english bill of rights quite well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_of_Rights_1689

Of course...The concept of individual rights in a monarchy are subject to the whims of the benevolent Monarch (as are any liberties we claim as our own in Australia).

[.]

64.

"Didn't know guns were totally banned in Egypt and Iran and Burma and north Korea....oh wait.................."

Yes I'm quite sure Karen Christians can meekly own a hunting rifle to feed their family.

[Jenny]

65.

False sense of security? You're nuts mate.

Why do you hate men?

[Jenny]

66.

[Removed - violation of comments policy]

[.]

67.

Come on. Let's see some crime stats and see why you felt safer, or if it was due to your rampant Yank bashing.

[Tim Andrews]

68.

Just as a personal observation, relatively recently a rather close friend of mine was in the position where we had genuine very serious concerns about her safety due to a certain crazy stalker ex. Without going into details, I (and many others) were very worried that he might commit an act of violence against her, and there was no way she could (legally) protect herself.

Fortunately, nothing bad ended up happening. But would we have all felt a hell of a lot better if she was able to keep a weapon for self-defence? You betcha...

(TVA)

[.]

69.

Please cite the US law where poverty is criminalised, you shrieking loon.

Or should I say: phil/freddie/isher/junmaro/jenny/felicity - piss off to Graeme M Bird's blog where you normally skulk around.

[.]

70.

"oh for crissakes men will always hang around, be peeping toms, drop their daks, perv, be where women don't want them to be. Welocme to Women's World."

"Why do you think all men are so frighteningly dangerous?"

Raving. Bloody. Loony.

[Jenny]

71.

WTF?

The criminalisation of poverty is enshrined in law y'reckon?

Moron.

[Michael Sutcliffe]

72.

I think that says more about being in a rural area, than about gun control Michael.

This may come as a surprise but people still live in rural areas. This probably also comes as a surprise but Penrith is a suburban area.

Texas does have a violent aspect to it, but I'd still happily live there (and I may end up there). Furthermore, I'm perfectly happy in the US when I see people with guns on their hips and I don't think too many Yanks are terrified they live in a society where a shooting spree is about to happen any minute. In fact, exactly the opposite.

[Jenny]

73.

Sorry, I didn't know the F word was verboten. Cute, weird, but cute.

[Jenny]

74.

What women would like from men is grownups who know how to talk to and deal with a potential threat from another man. We don't want you to blow his brains out. Capishe?

[Michael Sutcliffe]

75.

Jenny, if anyone puts up a good argument for gun control here, it's you. Not by your argument, but definitely by what you say.

I admit, you singlehandedly go a long way to undermining my position that we should trust society to be rational and civilised. If you start confessing to animal torture and voices in your head, I'll concede.

[Jenny]

76.

This is all complete bollocks. Violent anti-social psycho men just want the state to allow them to enact their violent fantasies. Sorry dorks, we won't allow it. Deal with it.

And grow a few solidarity, communitarian, collectivist genes why don't you. Otherwise we might have to expunge YOU from the body politic as toxic waste.

[Jenny]

77.

She would have been far better off having a mobile phone on her at all times, learning self-defence and having a red-blooded male adult that could've spoken to the man involved.

Men who rely on guns only to deal with complex social interactions are cowards and weaklings.

All women know this.

[Dan]

78.

All women know this...

"Armed with a shotgun, her father joined the other men of the black community in night patrols to keep the KKK out of the neighborhood. It was in the crucible of that experience that Condoleezza developed her opposition to gun control and came to value what she sees as the Second Amendment guarantee of the ”right to bear arms.“

[Jenny]

79.

Good try Dan. Sample of one neo-con female proves nothing. It's actually piss-weak. Again.

The historical record stands. Women have been the backbone, the ground troops of the fight internationally for gun controls, military and nuclear disarmament, and for peace and non-violence.

Now I wonder why that is....?

[Jenny]

80.

Re Egypt and the non-violence strategy of the protesters:

"The Egyptian revolt was years in the making. Ahmed Maher, a 30-year-old civil engineer and a leading organizer of the April 6 Youth Movement, first became engaged in a political movement known as Kefaya, or Enough, in about 2005. Mr. Maher and others organized their own brigade, Youth for Change. But they could not muster enough followers; arrests decimated their leadership ranks, and many of those left became mired in the timid, legally recognized opposition parties. “What destroyed the movement was the old parties,” said Mr. Maher, who has since been arrested four times…

For their part, Mr. Maher and his colleagues began reading about nonviolent struggles. They were especially drawn to a Serbian youth movement called Otpor, which had helped topple the dictator Slobodan Milosevic by drawing on the ideas of an American political thinker, Gene Sharp. The hallmark of Mr. Sharp’s work is well-tailored to Mr. Mubark’s Egypt: He argues that nonviolence is a singularly effective way to undermine police states that might cite violent resistance to justify repression in the name of stability.

The April 6 Youth Movement modeled its logo — a vaguely Soviet looking red and white clenched fist—after Otpor’s, and some of its members traveled to Serbia to meet with Otpor activists."

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/14/world/middleeast/14egypt-tunisia-protests.html?_r=1

[Michael Sutcliffe]

81.

Good try Dan. Sample of one neo-con female proves nothing. It's actually piss-weak. Again.

You're just jealous, Phil, because Condi is hot and she's an extremely articulate and successful woman who exudes seductive femininity to the point where it was a 'weapon' she employed as Secretary of State, as one of the most powerful people in the world. And despite the wonders of modern gender reassignment surgery you will never, ever have a chance of achieving anywhere near this level of womanhood.

[steven]

82.

What women would like from men is grownups who know how to talk to and deal with a potential threat from another man. We don't want you to blow his brains out""
are you in a stable mental state?
talk to a violent criminal who wants to rob you?
is the potential threat a grown up man too?
what if he wants to blow your brains out?

[steven]

83.

And grow a few solidarity, communitarian, collectivist genes why don't you. Otherwise we might have to expunge YOU from the body politic as toxic waste.""
who is we ?
what right to do this would YOU have?
do you think we might put up a fight?
i know it would be easier for you to do this to unarmed people.
the nazis knew that.

[Jenny]

84.

I'm sorry if you're unhappily married and suffer from impotence mate.

Fact is your type of aggro violent man repulses women and terrifies children.

Deal with it.

[Tony]

85.

This is one of the poorest attempts to gloss over the fact that john howard was wrong the laws he introduced attacked Conservative politics at the heart, if you don't believe me what happened to the 22 national party seats the introduction of these gun laws lost to Conservative cause. Who needs political enemy's when the nationals have friends like howard.The feel good laws he introduced have done the opposite of there intended purpose our crime rate was going down prior to 96 and they reversed course to be rising since the government stole our right to self defense.Now it's the small business owners who are paying the price of these laws as they are at the brunt of the gangs and crims looking for easy targets.the laws howard introduced are a black mark on the soul of conservative politics in this country and it is going to take a major reversal of these laws to get back the majority of the votes howard lost in there introduction.Glossing over what he did just denies the fact that what he did was plain wrong if he had done the right thing and supported his political Alli the nationals we would probably still be in power now how can you trust anybody who turns on their allies it is unaustralian and this voter still votes accordingly

[.]

86.

I'm a moron?

You brought it up you twit.

[Vikas Nayak]

87.

Just as an FYI.

You can get a gun license in Australia for $215 and a cheap pistol costs as little as $150.

More information here : http://www.shootingcentre.nsw.gov.au/chapter.php?cat_id=4&chapter_id=39

Stay premium my fellow patriots!

[.]

88.

Jesus Christ you're a raving loony.

Women want a red blooded man to get his brains blown out by thugs as he tries to talk his way out of a home invasion?

You egregious twit.

[Michael Sutcliffe]

89.

Jenny, you'll never pass as a woman if you're going to revert to a male tone of speech every time you feel threatened. Now, reread my post above and take some lessons from Condi in how to handle confrontation with feminine pizzaz. Now, have you worked out how to hide your steak and two veg in a cocktail dress yet?

[.]

90.

Um yeah sure. El Madrina, possibly the worst serial killer never to hold a tyrannical political office, was of course, a woman.

[steven]

91.

i forgot..
talk to and deal with a potential threat.....
please put that gun down.
put that knife away.
don't shoot me.
don't stab me.
don't bash and rob me.
i know you are high on drugs but please listen.
if you don't put that knife or gun down i will punch you.
i will call the police and they will be here in 30 minutes.

[.]

92.

Gentle people,

Jennifer, Felicity etc are sock puppets of a certain JinMaro, who was banned from Lavartus Prodeo for being too left wing and argumentative.

Her/his other noms were freddie, Isher and philomena on catalalxy.

She stalks the catallaxy refugees everywhere on the net with her gender confused ramblings. He would accuse other men on LP of pretending to write as women...or was that accuse women of really being men. She now hangs out at Graeme Bird's blog.

Ban this fool MH.

[.]

93.

"Jenny said in reply to Michael Sutcliffe...
I'm sorry if you're unhappily married and suffer from impotence mate.

Fact is your type of aggro violent man repulses women and terrifies children.

Deal with it."

You're an arsehole through and through.

Stop pretending to be a woman JinMaro. You got banned from Lavartus Prodeo and Catallaxy for this bullshit act.

Your MO is to tie down any good libertarian debate with your rambling. It's a good tactic if pushing a Stalinist agenda is your deal, but it will end soon.

[steven]

94.

Jesus Christ you're a raving loony.''''
BINGO!!!!

[.]

95.

Ah yes, "pip" was another of these absurd characters in JinMaro's sad dog and pony show.

Usually involving some crap about claiming victimhood status, old "pip"/phil.

[Michael Sutcliffe]

96.

Dot, let's propose to call a truce with Jenny. We all appreciate her commentary, but threads like this really get out of hand and probably ruin the experience for many readres. She's got to stop ranting with her gender issues and off-track left-wing conspiracies and we'll stop baiting her and challenging her identity. I won't ask for a response, but maybe we all feel this way and want tol uphold the quality of MH articles and debate.

[Jenny]

97.

This poor fool seems to have the hots for this female Scarlet Pimpernel. We know how that hurts an unattractive dude. But someone so obviously splendid wouldn't look twice at an uncultured, cowardly twerp like he.

[Michael Sutcliffe]

98.

Or she can just f*ck off and go back to Birdy's site!!

[Tony]

99.

To those of you who think that banning guns brings a safer society in the real world the criminals and gangs are already armed that is a fact in over 2000000 cases a year in the USA by a Harvard study (anti gun by the way )a gun is used to stop a violent encounter with a criminal with no one being hurt . In Alpaso and Juarez same ethnic mix same gangs operating both city's population around 500000 yet Alpaso has had only one murder for the year while in happy gun free Juarez there has been 2500 and counting wake up and smell the stuff gun control is shoveling.

[Jenny]

100.

There's a logical argument hiding in that misogynist rant somewhere ain't there?

Don't ever tell me I not generous (like most left women).

What's the prob, hon, you're hitched up to a lemon mouthed dud?