Mythbusters: NBN

Adam Murphy debunks some of the myths that have been obstructing rational debate regarding the NBN.

Over the time I have spent keeping abreast of developments regarding the National Broadband Network, I have noticed that several arguments in support of that network assume a similar form. Taken in toto, they comprise a myth of the absolute necessity of the NBN. It is my intention here to ‘bust’ this mythological edifice that has been erected to shield the network from scrutiny, and to place it in the proper social and global contexts that are often ignored by the network’s more devout supporters.

Myth No 1: ‘The Snowy Hydro Scheme and/or Sydney Opera House were not subjected to cost-benefit analyses, so neither should the NBN be’.

This is a classic logical fallacy, an ‘appeal to tradition’, which asserts that past practice is, ipso facto, suitable in the present. This is obviously not of itself true, for a number of reasons. Consider the bare numbers: the Sydney Opera House cost roughly $110 million. The Snowy Hydro Scheme was about $8 billion (both these figures are in 2010 dollars). We know that the NBN will likely turn out to cost in the region of $30-40 billion, if government predictions are accurate – that’s about 3 Snowy Schemes, or 360 Opera Houses. Even if those two ventures were not subjected to a cost-benefit analysis, the sheer expense of the NBN suggests the need for a more diligent approach.

Myth No 2 (a corollary to No 1): ‘The NBN is necessary simply because it is a nation-building venture, regardless of the outcome of a cost-benefit analysis’.

While social utility is an important criterion of any government project, it should never be the sole determinant of whether a project should go ahead. Large-scale government activities ought always to be subjected to a rigorous economic analysis. The days of the 1950s, when Labor opposition leaders blithely made promises to increase aggregate government spending by 50 per cent or more without a care in the world for the economic viability of such proposals, are best left in the past. As F. A. Hayek once wrote, ‘the curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they think they can design’ – idealist nation-building should never come before statistical reality.

Myth No 3: ‘I live in a remote regional community and I have no/very slow internet, therefore the NBN is necessary’.

This is black-and-white thinking at its best. It is akin to saying, ‘I do not own a car and therefore the government should purchase for me a Rolls-Royce (although it will still charge me for servicing that I may not be able to afford)’. The question is not one of ‘yes or no’, and it is disingenuous of supporters of the network to make that claim. Instead, the question is, ‘yes, but how much?’ Do we need expensive fibre-to-the-house hardware, that is not necessarily fully exploitable by ordinary households, in 93 per cent of Australian homes? Could a sufficient level of service be achieved by upgrading existing ADSL services? These are examples of valid questions that are swept under the carpet by the black-and-white nature of this particular NBN myth, and whatever decision is made regarding the future of Australian broadband would be strengthened by a frank and full analysis of them.

Myth No 4: ‘Our regional neighbours in Asia are modernising, and if we do not keep up then we will become a backwater’.

In my opinion, this myth captures well the cultural zeitgeist of ‘keeping up with the Joneses’ that has pervaded progressive thought in this country for many years (see Hawke’s ‘clever country’ for an earlier example). However, in this case, the argument spectacularly ignores basic variations in geography and economy that distinguish us from the Joneses of the Asia-Pacific region. Although countries such as Japan and South Korea are modernising their own telecommunications infrastructure, it is worth remembering that the population densities of these countries are over a hundred times that of Australia’s, meaning that economies of scale makes this infrastructure inherently cheaper for a larger number of people. China is the only country in the region that is remotely comparable in size and geographical issues to that of Australia – and do you see a fibre optic cable stretching into the home of every Chinese peasant? Even notwithstanding the obvious differences in personal wealth and level of development that influence the Chinese case, it is clear that geographical considerations cannot be overlooked.

Additionally, the economic strength of countries such as China, Japan and South Korea will always be greater than our own, and they will be ahead of us in ways that extend beyond telecommunications infrastructure. Let’s consider an analogous large-scale project in another country. Japan is currently engaged in the building of a Maglev train line, the Chūō Shinkansen, on which trains will one day travel at up to 600 km/h (twice the speed of contemporary high-speed rail systems). Incidentally, this train line will cost JR Central (a private Japanese railway company) $44 billion US. Of course, we are a long way behind Japan on the development of Maglev train systems, but how much credence do you think a politician would give to the suggestion that we ought to spend tens of billions of dollars on the construction of a Maglev link between Sydney and Melbourne? Probably very little – as the reader may well know, the current debate concerns whether we will have any sort of high-speed rail! The idea that the NBN will allow us to ‘lead the pack’, so to speak, is quite simply a ludicrous one when other countries will inevitably continue to outperform us in other ways, such as high-speed rail networks, and the opportunity cost of the NBN is obviously stratospheric. Instead, it is far more important for us to design policy around the consideration of domestic economic and social issues first before worrying about what other (more densely-populated and economically powerful) states are doing.

What Does Mythbusting Tell Us?

In conclusion, it is important to realise that the debunking of these myths is not in itself an invalidation of the whole NBN project. Although I see it as a near impossibility that the network will be ultimately successful in its current form, I am happy to be proven wrong in retrospect – after all, I am interested first and foremost in the best outcomes for this country. Thus, the purpose of refuting these myths is to help encourage a logical and constructive debate on the merits and demerits of the NBN, and to prevent that grandiose ambition from being implemented on the basis of incorrect and simpliciter justifications that obscure the very real potential for the network to fail, and to soften the sneering barbs of progressives who seek to portray dissenting voices as geriatric Luddites. By removing the myth of NBN as an absolute necessity, a more effective solution to Australian telecommunications needs is likely to result. 

Adam Murphy is an Arts/Law student at the University of Newcastle.

Comments

[Vikas Nayak]

1.

The Opera House was formally completed in 1973, having cost $102 million. H.R. "Sam" Hoare, the Hornibrook director in charge of the project, provided the following approximations in 1973: Stage I: podium Civil & Civic Pty Ltd approximately $5.5m. Stage II: roof shells M.R. Hornibrook (NSW) Pty Ltd approximately $12.5m. Stage III: completion The Hornibrook Group $56.5m. Separate contracts: stage equipment, stage lighting and organ $9.0m. Fees and other costs $16.5m. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sydney_Opera_House.

Sure, the opera house would only cost $8 million than it cost in 1973.

The Scheme was managed by the Snowy Mountains Hydro-electric Authority, and took 25 years to build, from 1949 to 1974,[8] at the cost (at that time) of AUD$820 million; a dollar value equivalent in 1999 and 2004 to AUD$6 billion.[9][10] It employed over 100,000 people from over 30 countries in its construction, providing valuable employment for a large number of recently arrived immigrants, and was important in Australia's post-war economic and social development. Seventy percent of all the workers were migrants.[11]

Source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_Mountains_Scheme

You might be right on this one (assuming the land costs appreciate at inflationary rate only).

Other than that, a very simplistic analysis of some of the arguments brought up in favor of the NBN. The fascination with the CBA however...i'm a little skeptical on. The CBA is a political ploy, i cannot imagine the coalition engaging in one ever (they literally havent had a CBA on a single policy they've ever implemented, and if we had, the work choices debacle would never have happened, and i cant imagine Australia would ever have entered into Afghanistan or Iraq).

I guess MH is continuing its amature hour track in relation to the NBN.

[Andy]

2.

Good Blog, Adam.
You should email it to Senator Conroy.

My issue with the NBN has always been this:
Expected rate of return for the NBN Co: the Gov Bond Yield or about 6%
Expected cost of Capital for the NBN Co: 11% (they admit this)
Cost 11% to earn 6% so why bother?

And what are going to power the NBN with? Useless Renewables like Solar and Wind??

And, with $43billion, we could have funded each state and terrority to build a New Dam and a new Gas Powerstation.
Or if we had some real ticker, we’d spend the money on 5 Nuclear Power Plants (assuming they cost all up $8bn each) and massively cut down on our carbon emissions and ensure a reliable and affordable baseload power.

And as for the bullshit about no one wants a Nuclear plant near them, take the Nuclear Plant found in Nogent, which is located 10.6 km (6.6 miles) from the centre of Paris or the Blayais Plants located in the Bordeaux Wine Regions.
Enough of the Scaremongering from the Ecotool Greens and Ecotard ALP. The French don’t seem to have a worry.

List of Nuclear Plants in France
Belleville 1 (PWR), Operable
Belleville 2 (PWR), Operable
Blayais 1 (PWR), Operable
Blayais 2 (PWR), Operable
Blayais 3 (PWR), Operable
Blayais 4 (PWR), Operable
Bugey 2 (PWR), Operable
Bugey 3 (PWR), Operable
Bugey 4 (PWR), Operable
Bugey 5 (PWR), Operable
Cattenom 1 (PWR), Operable
Cattenom 2 (PWR), Operable
Cattenom 3 (PWR), Operable
Cattenom 4 (PWR), Operable
Chinon B1 (PWR), Operable
Chinon B2 (PWR), Operable
Chinon B3 (PWR), Operable
Chinon B4 (PWR), Operable
Chooz B1 (PWR), Operable
Chooz B2 (PWR), Operable
Civaux 1 (PWR), Operable
Cruas 1 (PWR), Operable
Cruas 2 (PWR), Operable
Cruas 3 (PWR), Operable
Cruas 4 (PWR), Operable
Dampierre 1 (PWR), Operable
Dampierre 2 (PWR), Operable
Dampierre 3 (PWR), Operable
Dampierre 4 (PWR), Operable
Fessenheim 1 (PWR), Operable
Fessenheim 2 (PWR), Operable
Flamanville 1 (PWR), Operable
Flamanville 2 (PWR), Operable
Golfech 1 (PWR), Operable
Golfech 2 (PWR), Operable
Gravelines B1 (PWR), Operable
Gravelines B2 (PWR), Operable
Gravelines B3 (PWR), Operable
Gravelines B4 (PWR), Operable
Gravelines C5 (PWR), Operable
Gravelines C6 (PWR), Operable
Nogent s/Seine 1 (PWR), Operable
Nogent s/Seine 2 (PWR), Operable
Paluel 1 (PWR), Operable
Paluel 2 (PWR), Operable
Paluel 3 (PWR), Operable
Paluel 4 (PWR), Operable
Penly 1 (PWR), Operable
Penly 2 (PWR), Operable
Phenix (LMFBR), Operable
Saint-Alban 1 (PWR), Operable
Saint-Alban 2 (PWR), Operable
Saint-Laurent B1 (PWR), Operable
Saint-Laurent B2 (PWR), Operable
Tricastin 1 (PWR), Operable
Tricastin 2 (PWR), Operable
Tricastin 3 (PWR), Operable
Tricastin 4 (PWR), Operable

[Adam Murphy]

3.

Vikas,

I'm sorry you feel that my article was a little simplistic. Of course, there is a finite level of complexity that can be included in a 1,000 word piece, and I view the article as an instigator of debate rather than a conclude of it. Regarding the Opera House figure of $110 million, I admit I was skeptical of the figure when I noted it in the SMH, and I had some reservations about including it in the article. Thank you for pointing out that it may be incorrect. However, even if the Opera House did cost substantially more in 2010 dollars than the figure I gave, I don't think that this would, of itself, obviate the comments I made.

As for the CBA, I'm not at all interested in partisan point-scoring. I don't seek to defend the Coalition's failure to make use of such analyses; in my opinion, that was equally erroneous. Such reviews ought to be used more widely in the future, regardless of which party is in power.

[Vikas Nayak]

4.

I actually dont think "the real dollar" amount people talk about is all that "real" tbh. Its usually calculated by a simple compund calculation P(1.05)^n (where n = number of years since the project was completed).

Infact, if we compare the cost to GDP, in 1973 at the completion of the Opera house, the GDP stood at $84 billion, which means a $102 million project was about 0.0012% of GDP. In todays terms, we could spend $1,214,285,714.29 for the same percentage of GDP. Looking accross at the Snowy Mountain Scheme, $820 million (with the $100 billion economy of 1974, to give a minimum percentage), you're looking at 0.082%, which would factor to $82,000,000,000 in dollar terms today. The NBN is expensive...its just not out of the norm, in terms of nation building. Keep in mind, to create telstra, the government invested $10 million into the post master general's office when the size of the GDP was $700 million.

There are many reasons to avoid the CBA, but the best reason i can think of, is that it would be wholly superflous in dealing with a government program. Truth is, government projects have a much more rigourous analysis applied to them (such as the snowy mountain scheme and opera house) in productivity assessments. A CBA only benefits the party machine and costs the tax payer a lot of money for a whole bunch of figures that collectively present ambiguous cases for both the implementation of the NBN and opposition to the NBN.

It is fundamentally false to claim that the snowy mountain scheme or opera house didnt have SOME form of public assessment into their costings, however, the assessment wasn't taken to opposition on the grounds of "nation building" or "national interest".

[Pip]

5.

Vikas Nayak IT expert to the Gods?

Very interesting post Adam Murphy, a pleasure to read, unlike the self promoting, arrogance of VN.

Both of you false ids no doubt, especially VN-always turning up and pretending to know more than everyone.

Check this out?

Andrew Bolt
Monday, December 06, 2010 at 06:42am

Every month seems to bring another discovery casting doubt on the wisdom of the Gillard Government betting $43 billion $50 billion $37 billion on just a fibre technology run to almost every home:

THE humble old rooftop TV aerial could bring superfast internet to even the most remote shack in the Australian Outback and help solve the problem of how to connect isolated communities across the globe.

Researchers from the Australian government science agency CSIRO have developed new technology which could achieve connection speeds to compete with the best: through the tangled piece of metal already attached to most roofs…

The NBN promises speeds of 100 megabits per second, but the new project team reckon they can match that and connect remote Australia through the spectrum once used for their TV sets… Unlike current GSM or 3G networks which lose download speed exponential to increasing users, Dr Oppermann said an analogue signal would provide a consistent speed no matter how many users there were.

(Thanks to reader Steve.)

UPDATE

Once again, the absolutists defending the NBN miss the point. No, this is no alternative to the NBN scheme. But every cheap or useful niche technology that competes with a segment of the NBN strips yet more of its market and weakens the business case.

http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/look_no_cable/#commentsmore

[Pip]

6.

Andy,

Why do you even bother with Climate scepticism if your so pro-Nuclear, post 2.

Why don't you just go and live in France if your so entranced by a Nuclear future?

[Vikas Nayak]

7.

Actually Pip, my thesis had NBN implications to it, my thesis supervisor wrote a chunk of the McKinley Report, i worked in an R&D lab where some of our work was in fiber network applications (with regard to IP telephony) and i've given presentations to undergraduate students on FTTP technology.

With regard to the NBN...i know my shit.

[Andy]

8.

Pip,

The ecotoon politicians are happy to spend billions on useless renewable energy sources, pushing up everyone’s power bills all because of evil AGW yet there is green baseload solution and it is nuclear power.
I’m also happy to live here in Australia and I was simply pointing out the fact that the people of France seem to live ok with nuclear power too.
Now if you want get all condescending then fine, it just proves to me you’re just another ecotard dickhead.

[Vikas Nayak]

9.

Just out of curiousity, how did we jump into nuclear in a topic about the NBN?

[Andy]

10.

That was my doing, Vikas.

I figured I'd change the subject for a change. Apologies to Adam.

Also, I'd rather see the money blown on the NBN used on stuff like new power stations, dams etc

[Pip]

11.

You sound like a message board user who usually hangs out with this lot.

Unfortunately that message board user has a very elevated opinion of his/her own pronouncements which usually amount to much huff and puff and no real substance.

In the case of that blogger it is a pretense at knowledge to provoke others.

The typical method is the one used by you used today. Picking at one relatively unimportant aspect of the essay, in this case the realative costs of the Snowy Mountain scheme, Sydney Opera house and then jumping from there to a wild assumption that the person will become self conscious, feel put down etc.

Works a treat, so predictable.

This is you at your humble best in post 1.

>>I guess MH is continuing its amature hour track in relation to the NBN.

You in post 7

>>Actually Pip, my thesis had NBN implications to it, my thesis supervisor wrote a chunk of the McKinley Report...

I have to say its the same gambit, this blogger uses, its so noticable for the wild exaggeration and lack of humility viz.

" Well, of course, I actually wrote the McKinley Report....blah, blah"

I saw you pulling the same routine yesterday with someone else...

I may be wrong, but few people show off that much, for real.

Vikas, I'm sure you are a lovely guy, but you have alerted my b...ls...t meter.

I will be watching you closely.

[Pip]

12.

Andy,
I will try and forget your rude way of addressing a woman that you don’t know. I think treating each other with respect is very important unless that person is trying to pull a con of course. We all need to be alert to unmasking imposters and con artists. Snake oil salesmen and the like..

I have been puzzled by your position on AGW and I probably incorrectly assumed you were a truth seeker and someone who was tormented by the scientific fraud being perpetuated on us in order to make society change. The change that is being sought of course is economic unification of the World. No borders so that Transnational’s can move their operations flexibly, plying their trade on the currents of chance without incumberances.

Most people who support Globalisation are politically prepared to accept the science hoax to achieve that end.

But you are a conundrum, you are a Securities and Derivatives Dealer, according to the blurb, which means your income depends on buoyant transnational markets. It would seem a little bit of coaxing of the market to achieve the Transnational’s dream of nuclear power would be right up your alley. Well it is, up to a point, it’s just the alternative power sources you object to. You think it is cr@p and another waste of funds. I get it now. It’s like the cost of solar credits pushing up energy costs for everyone. I get that.

But, everyone here, particularly the Libertarians are so one dimensional. Its all about economics.

Life is a richer tapestry than just economics.

Economics are important yes, but bringing up children in a nuclear free world is very, very important. Do you have children?

My check out chick at the Supermarket is French, I asked her why she left, she said French people are too narrow minded, like you perhaps?

[Vikas Nayak]

13.

I'll be sure to wiggle my fantastic behind so that you get a good view. I also never claimed to write the McKinley Report, so slight exageration on your part.

But to reply to your specific comments, I actually put down the article because it was pretty much a troll article (little substance, designed to goad people into making emotive arguements one way or the other, usually reflecting the political situation of the day), and the author pretty much admitted to it being as such.

Andy, that argument can be made about EVERY government program that is run. We spend ~$100 billion on social security every year...we could build 10+ nuclear plants a year if we dropped that. The BER had a blow out of $16 billion, thats 2 nuclear plants there right? The Iraq + Afganistan war cost us $3 billion until 2007 and $1.2 billion in the last year alone, thats 1 nuclear plant right there. All you're doing is really citing a version of the broken window fallacy.

Considering we'd be going into debt for the NBN, I dont think its a particularily useful argument for "right wing" politicians.

[Pip]

14.

Vikas,

I knew you would say that:

>"I also never claimed to write the McKinley Report."

I just threw a bit of narrative hyperbole in to give you the flavour of your attempt to portray yourself as a person of authority on the issue.

I'm sure the purpose of the article was designed to goad people into making emotive arguements as I'm sure the purpose of yours was to depict yourself as an unasailable authority and close off other opinions on the issue.

Put a bit of terror into people of low confidence hey, coming from your position of omniscience, deciding behind the scenes with your pals how to run the next narrative?

Easy, too easy!

[Vikas Nayak]

15.

What exactly is behind the scenes here pip?

Just FYI, some of the admins here have met me at pub crawls, i think you'll find very few people willing to agree with you that i'm hiding anything (with respect to authority, or my history on this topic).

[Pip]

16.

Whatever Vikas,

Nobody is going to admit here what your up to?

I'm thinking along the lines of the admin folks here:

The NBN is possibly seen as a way that the rural life of most here can be preserved.

I’m just guessing, there seem to be quite a number who claim to be from the bush. Since the futurist drive to city hubs linked by fastrail seems to be around in the zeitgeist.( I have referred to Elizabeth Farrelly and others exhorting the public to think vertical etc.)
Korea and China have fibre to the node economies because all their housing development is tower blocks.

Rural rollout while the ALP is in power makes sense because this is the part that could never be justified by private enterprise. Hopefully by the time the Coalition gets in the rural rollouts will be complete and the rest can be done by private enterprise.

Roll out on the horizontal traditional country town layout may help preserve this way of life against the futurists who want to clear the land of so–called inefficient small farmers.

Just an idea.

Oh, by the way, I think your character has lost its tone. I've got to go but I think the vikas glove puppet might have a different hand in it now?

Important to notice when the tone of voice changes.

Especially if your being attacked, it might be a signal that the attack is to be ramped up?

[Vikas Nayak]

17.

I may or may not be confused with your position here pip. Are you for or against the NBN? The admin folks are a lively bunch that love vodka and OJ's.

The tone is different because you're not talking about the NBN. I think you'll find if you start talking about the NBN my tone will change again.

[Pip]

18.

Vikas

or whoever is operating the glove puppet today.

I might tell you what I think if you first tell me who your little group is, names please, I’m sure there is a worthy name and a TLA ( Three letter Acronym )?

Or maybe its more artsy, like makebelieve?

How many people are you working on- recruiting or whatever level of engagement you maintain with them?

Are you an independent cell or do you get your orders from head office, so to speak?

How many of you are in the leadership...you know what I mean, feel you have the authority and right to design, plan strategies and ask questions of me and others.

What makes you feel you have that authority, apart from being a co-author of the McKinley Report and a VIP in your own lunchbox? Smirk!

[Pip]

19.

and Vikas,

One more question:

What happened to Luke and Megadabo7?

[Vikas Nayak]

20.

Pip, you're starting to sound like the little old lady that turns up to council meetings to protest flouride in the water. Albeit amusing, i'd suggest you calm down and provide a framing for what your understanding of the problem appears to be, or i'm not going to have a clue what exactly it is that you're asking.

[Andy]

21.

You drew first blood, not me.

[Pip]

22.

In reply to Vikas Nayak as a proxy for the Leadership.

My Personal History
with your group, circle cell or however you choose to describe it.

Roughly 3 years ago, 2007, I happened upon your group, circle cell, or however you choose to describe yourselves on the Yahoo7 LOST message boards, where you depicted yourselves as fans of the Lost program.

Most of the people there depicted themselves as teenagers or children, the adults were predominantly kept within a thread called the Retirement Village.

There was a distinct Leadership group, depicted in User names as Megadabo7, Micro and Roach on Toast.

There was another character called Luke who was a behind the scenes, important to the operation person, there were others too.

These characters were disported like characters in a book and there was much fictional narrative and play, disguising a training program, straight out of the Forum manuals.

I later found that most of the children were not children. Luke for example told me he was 17, at school and of Palestinian Christian heritage. He subsequently told me he was Jewish and an adult, this is just one example of misrepresentation of each person and the group as a whole.

The characters were played like glove puppets with different people assuming the roles of others.

This group obtained a very personal life history from me then spent a couple of weeks trying to exile me on a separate board they created for me. From that time forward I was ostrasized, not allowed on the Lost board and everyone was prohibited from ever speaking to me again. Except for a while I was spoken to by two of the group, on my separate board, who I now recognize as Libertarians from here. Then I was left to my own devises on my exile board , for years.

I was permitted back to the Lost board at the end of the Final season but nobody would speak to me or read anything I wrote. Once the series finished in January 2010 every one departed and left me there basically alone.

In the mean time I found the two Libertarians on the Yahoo7 Politics boards but still they would not acknowledge me or speak to me. The only time I was ever spoken to was at these end of year Q&A sessions, like now..

Just before the Federal Election the Yahoo 7 Boards were closed. The group, circle or whatever you call it just upped and vanished, as they did from the LOST board. Some of the board attendees were offered an alternative board called Ozpolitics. I chose to disengage.

Continued...

[Pip]

23.

continuing.....

After the election I came here out of interest, on my own volition and quickly discovered that the group, cell , circle were here.

Micro had become Elizabeth, John had become Brett, Dockie from Yahoo7 had become David M Russell, KK had become Vikas Nayek, Loocy had become the black spot etc.

The group had to all intents and purposes tried to ditch me, it would seem but Menzies House is supposed to be an open board, so attempts at ditching me this time may be different. However, I already have a block that comes up whenever I come here, navigate or try to post, so I have to assume I have already been ostracized, as I have been on all prior occasions.

In spite of all this I was sent out on a mission in 2009, about 6 months before Copenhagen, like all other Politics board users, I was told.

For me it was engagement in the public campaign over Climate change. Since this issue brought down the Prime Minister, Kevin Rudd, I have to assume this cell, circle or group is quite powerful. Everyone spoke of the “people campaign” but nobody seemed to know where it had come from.

It is my belief that you/they have sold themselves, far and wide as Moderators able to achieve a Political result, probably to both sides, or all sides as you/they have always been ecumenical in your/their politics.

Question

I have been used by your group to achieve purposes which I was never even told about. I naively thought I was learning, well, I was initially. I don’t want to be used as a blind assassin of Kevin Rudd or anyone else. I want to know who you are and all the details I queried in posts 18 and 19.

[Anton]

24.

Pip

You must inform Julian Assange before it is too late. Hurry.

[Pip]

25.

post 21

>You drew first blood, not me.

Are you refering to David M Russell or Brett?

Even before you put the block on my posts there were not any potential outsiders about, just your own people, so outing David or Brett was no first blood.

Perceptions at Yahoo, I think said "why do you bother with our little group website"? Menzies House has been "very little" since the start of November so I'm hardly revealing your "inner secrets".

I don't know any of your "inner secrets" anyway, who you are, what your up to, whether your working on your own behalf etc. But to the extent that you are a secret organization, you do act like the American Government.

To reply to Anton, yes you do need a little wikileaking. But its certainly not me, I don't even know how to bit link.

[Vikas Nayak]

26.

Sorry i was a little busy yesterday, you know, plotting to take over Australian politics one forum at a time. We represent the Coalition of Unnamed Network Technicians of Sweden (otherwise known as C.U.N.T.S), except for "luke" (its absolutely not his real name) who is partnered by our affiliate group Pedophiles for the Ethical Neutering of Injured Seals (otherwise known as P.E.N.I.S).

Together the two groups work for the CDC, who in conjunction with the bilderberg group are putting sterilising agents into the flouride in you water. The organisation was forced to ostracize you because you were about to stumble across their secret. If you read the 4th word of every paragraph that was ever posted, it contains a secret communique revealing the location of Elvis Presly...who represents the second coming of jesus...you see, noone could know the truth...that god really loves the blues, and thus the US government had to cover it up.

The organisation took over Menzies House when one of the admins (tim) drank his first OJ and Vodka which was laced with a mind controlling syrum that we add to vaccines to make people think that global warming is real, that the world is really billions of years old and that katy perry can sing. We would have gotten away with it all...if it wasnt for your medelling pip!

[Pip]

27.

Vikas,

How immature of you....you must be one of the babies of the group.

Nevertheless, the old ones send you out to do it. Sort of like cannon fodder?

The old ones are too delicate and precious to behave in such an uncouth way, but they should never forget they are equally culpable, even when they are mystically engaging with each other, in "Peace and Love". Same old, same old.

"Luke" or whatever his name is, knows that.

Secrecy does not work....you recommended reading Popper's "THE OPEN SOCIETY" I got it from a Uni Library but did not get to read it. I can't imagine it suggests forming a secret society amongst your pals?

But what do I know?

So, am I to think that is the only Answer I will get from you?

Don't worry, I'm not annoyed that I wasted my time.

You're refusal to answer my questions was as predictable as you getting down in the gutter, "Vikas".

Let me say, some of the oldies, like David M Russell aka Strewth are willing to get down and dirty.

I will never forget David M Russell telling me, at Yahoo, General Dicussion or Coffee Lounge, as I recall that women like me should have a purple veined junket pumper thrust down my throat.

Such nice people the delicate Elizabeth hangs out with. But I guess she is so imbued by her idea of a dreamy green utopia that David and you Vikas are just a means to an end for her.

[Pip]

28.

Oh well forgot to save the post.

So what, nobody reads anyway!

Maybe the Moderator read it.

Your inability to take me on board as an individual, to treat me with any dignity was predictable.

Vikas, the gist was, grow up, and don't do the dirty work for a couple of old hypocrites.

But I guess you can't even begin to understand that for maybe 20 years.....So?

[.]

29.

PAY ATTENTION TO ME! GROW UP! I NEED A NEW TINFOIL HAT!

[Vikas Nayak]

30.

Damn...i knew i forgot something.

We're also responsible for getting people to visit their doctor for "cavity" checks in which we place radio transmitters that are picked up by a vast sattelite network that then transmits the information to julia gillards email!

[Pip]

31.

zzzzzzzzz!!

So boring, is that all you could come up with?

Check this out, Internet censors!

I liken you to the American Government because you are similar to the extent that you are emmissaries for American soft power, representing the real power of course, not people like Obama et al, those other servants of the real power.

check this out, freedom lovers...

>Twilight of Internet Freedom?

The Internet has been the greatest tool for freedom in modern times. If it is censored, controlled, regulated, or otherwise politically neutralized, the cause for freedom will take a gigantic step backwards. Of this we may be sure: the future of the free and open Internet will depend on the outcome of the struggle between WikiLeaks and the federal government.

Its from a right wing org, right up your alley.

http://www.thenewamerican.com/index.php/tech-mainmenu-30/computers/5433-censoring-wikileaks--then-the-internet-

[Vikas Nayak]

32.

BEHOLD

I AM JULIAN ASSANGE

Damnit...why wont it update my avatar from FB.

I blame tim...and possibly chris.

[Pip]

33.

You've probably seen this story in the Australian today, you rural folk, that's if you can get past the wall to wall wikileaks.

I think you rural folk should take a closer look at exactly what is planned for the NBN in your region. Extraordinarily, the NBN is just completely by-passing small towns and only servicing major towns and cities.

IN Brigalow, residents will be able to watch earthmovers digging a trench for a lightning-fast cable network they have no chance of using.
The backbone of the $36 billion National Broadband Network will run along the Warrego Highway, right outside their doors, in a township of 188 houses three hours' drive west of Brisbane.

In a scene set to play out in thousands of small towns across Australia, Brigalow will not be connected to the NBN fibre optic network, which will offer internet speeds of up to 100 megabits per second to 93 per cent of Australians. Instead, they will be offered a wireless internet service that is nine times slower at 12Mbps.

The NBN Co, the federal government business set up to design, build and operate the nation's biggest single infrastructure project, yesterday said the NBN cable would not be hooked up to towns with fewer than 1000 premises, due to the high cost of connection.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/nbn-entrenching-rural-disconnect/story-fn59niix-1225967922112

[Pip]

34.

Give me a break.

You really are reprehensible. I'm only trying to bring information here that some of the rural folk may have missed.

Its all so juvenile.

>>>The NBN Co, the federal government business set up to design, build and operate the nation's biggest single infrastructure project, yesterday said the NBN cable would not be hooked up to towns with fewer than 1000 premises, due to the high cost of connection.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/nbn-entrenching-rural-disconnect/story-fn59niix-1225967922112

[Phillip]

35.

The problem is that what Andrew or "reader Steve" has written is totally incorrect. The new CSIRO wireless tech (called Ngara) most certainly does slow with the number of users connected. That is the entire premise of wireless technology, and Dr Oppermann most certainly did not say that his network would not slow based on the number of users.

The more users you have, the more radio spectrum is required, the more it slows down unless you have enough spectrum for all the users. Which you don't, because it doesn't exist. To deliver 12Mbps to 12 users, the CSIRO system needs 7MHz of spectrum. To deliver 100Mbps, they will need to aggregate several chunks of 7MHz spectrum. The "digital dividend" comprises 126MHz of spectrum, which is enough to supply 18 CSIRO groups of 7MHz. In other words, it could only deliver 12Mbps to a maximum of 216 users in any one area simultaneously.

This limitation (common to all wireless technology) prevents it being useful in heavily populated areas. It is, in fact, a great solution for the wireless component of the NBN for rural areas, and it may well be adopted for that part.